SD Majesta vs HS Vanguard

[Evergreen]

Based on previous posts, seems a decision between the SD Majesta and HS Vanguard would be a coin toss decision for the same price.  Any thoughts on that?

I'm in the Denver area and have been quoted $9000 for the HS spa and $8800 for the SD spa.  Both seem high so not ready to buy yet.  Both include:

Spa delivered & setup
Steps
Cover & Basic Lifter
Starter Chemicals
1Yr No Payment/Interest

Would appreciate any thoughts on the tubs and/or price.  Any negotiating tips?

Thanks ...    

 

[J._McD]

What about the ozone? ???

Let's delineate the differences, jothers can help me out here:

Both are obviously very good manufacturers, good quality, reputable dealers, similar warranties, but:

SD has the air injector system, a nice feature (debateable but nice non the less) coupled with aroma therapy, one filter as opposed to multiple filters, filters down to 5 micron with disposable filter (less maintenence) different types of jets (fluidex) no moving parts to fail or require maintenence, stainless steel "eye glitter", smart electronics (debateable), LED back lighting (alternate style), substantially different synthetic cabinetry (IMO), you're in the "snow belt" so no frreze damage exclusion in the warranty, preferred ozone operations (higher gpm IMHO) vs. ?? chemicals = more maintenence.

Other than that, same hot water, same solid foam, same energy efficiency, same clean water, same meaningful result upon exiting the spa, both are a good choice.

Buying tip, have them include the ozone and write it up.  Or, look at the opposing point of view,.............(next)

The longer you debate, the longer you wait.  There is NO bad choice here

 

[Evergreen]

The Ozone ... Both have it included.

Thanks for the thoughts.  One thing the HS folks tout is that their filtration system is 100%, i.e., "no-bypass".  So that all of the water being pumped goes through the filter.  

The SD folks indicate about 70% goes through the filtration and the other 30% bypass it and go straight to the pump.

Is there any real significance in the difference?

 

[Lori]

Not familiar with the Majesta (it is too new) but I love my Vanguard!!

Have you considered wet testing?  You should!  It could be the deciding factor, without flipping a coin!

 

[Evergreen]

Lori:  You're right, I need to do a wet test.  I have a neighbor who owns the HS, so I can hit him up for a test soak ... then do the SD at the showroom.

By the way, the Majesta is SD's newest spa and it looks like it falls in their line-up around the Cameo, but without a lounge seat and a little smaller.

 

[J._McD]

The Ozone ... Both have it included.

Thanks for the thoughts.  One thing the HS folks tout is that their filtration system is 100%, i.e., "no-bypass".  So that all of the water being pumped goes through the filter.  

The SD folks indicate about 70% goes through the filtration and the other 30% bypass it and go straight to the pump.

Is there any real significance in the difference?

So what, I guess we all take a little point and make it big, but is that to say a SD is inferior in its concept of filtration, no.

What HS is saying is the performance pumps and the circulation pumps draw 100%  of the water through one of the multiple filters, thus 100% filtration, this is good.

SD has the circ pump and 1 performance pump pulling 100% of their water through the filter, while P2 does not.  Considering the the SD circ pump pulls 32 gpm, 24-7 and you can program the performance pump in comparison to HS circ pump of 5-6 gpm plus a "clean-up cycle" from the performance pump, IMO SD pulls more GPM through the filter.

So then again I ask, so what? ???

When your filters are dirty, they will obstruct water flow and lower performance putting strain on the pumps, the concept of "by-pass filters" was a coined phrase back in the 80's when you had a closed filter canister and when you put the pump on high performance, a "by-pass" spring opened to allow maximum pump pressure at the jet.  I beleive we are simply resurrecting an old buzz word

 

[Payton3485]

Evergreen I can tell you as a SD Majesta owner, the spa is amazing! I have not been in the HS Vanguard so my view is probably bias however. The SD is a great spa for 4-5 adults to soak comfortably. It is listed as a 5-6 person spa but in my opinion 6 would be too many. Are the prices you were quoted with including tax or is that the retail price? If you have any questions on the Majesta let me know. We got in ours yesterday for the 1st time after our electrical work was completed!! Good luck with your decision.

 

[Evergreen]

Payton3485:  Prices don't include tax, so that will and about 4.5%.  

 

[Payton3485]

I would probably try to negotiate prices a little if you can. I know spa prices are regionally based so I am not sure if your quoted price is a "good deal" or not. We paid $7,995 without tax for ours. Ours include Bromine startup kit, spa cover, drink tray, ozonator and installation. We also were given the option of 12 months no interest payments. We did not need the steps or lifter as our spa is built within a second tier deck.

 

[Payton3485]

Evergreen, have you made a decision yet? I am sure no matter which way you go, you will be very pleased. Good luck deciding, that is the fun part  ;D.

 

[Kyle]

I would test soak to make the final decision.  Frankly, anyone on this board can tear apart Sundance and Hot Springs for weaknesses in filtration.  They both clean the water great.  Just remember to test soak in each seat for a good period of time.  Make sure they set the temp to around 100 so you can still think clearly and enjoy soaking for 10 - 30 minutes without getting too tired.

 

[J._McD]

I would test soak to make the final decision.  Frankly, anyone on this board can tear apart Sundance and Hot Springs for weaknesses in filtration.  They both clean the water great.  Just remember to test soak in each seat for a good period of time.  Make sure they set the temp to around 100 so you can still think clearly and enjoy soaking for 10 - 30 minutes without getting too tired.

I would not consider, what is different between the two to be considered a weakness, nor a strength, in one or the other.  :-/

Both filtration systems do exactly what they are designed and intended to do, filter the water clean.  That becomes a matter of gpm and how much dirt you put in the water.  The gpm is a matter of capacity, the dirt, well that's quantity which will require more or less capacity. ;D ;D

 

[ebirrane]

one filter as opposed to multiple filters, filters down to 5 micron with disposable filter (less maintenence)

Alot of people have said really nice things about the Tri-X filters from HS.  You have more than 1 which gives you no single point of failure.  The Tri-X gives you more filter square footage (which for filter geeks is a good thing), and the tri-x are advertised as lasting 7-10 years and can be cleaned with a rinse through your dishwasher. That, to me, is less maintenance than having to buy a new filter the 2-4 times a year you change your water.

Big cost? probably not. Probably, what, an extra $30 a water change, but different people have different definitions of "high maintenance" and they should compare all aspects.

-Ed

 

[alwaysperky]

Could I interject with a question?  When I spoke to the HS dealer last weekend, they were selling one feature in particular which was that it would cost less per month to operate.  They even stated if it cost me more the $20 per month, any month, they'd buy it back from me.  (I failed to ask as what price they'd buy it)

Would that be a real consideration when comparing these two spas?

 

[J._McD]

Is that $20 a month for a 110 volt spa, or is it $240 volt spa? ???

I do not believe any 240 volt spa could honestly make that claim.  How do the establish how much it does cost you on a month to month basis, winter or summer, and is there any cost to you to evaluate the electrical consumption. ? ???  I think they come out a put a meter on the system, but are they going to leave it there for how long?

Monthly cost of operation has a direct correlation to volts x amps = watts and 1,000 watts is a kilowatt and that is what we pay for.

the largest electrical consumers in the operation of a spa are the cost of filtration run time + the cost of heating the water + the use of the hydro therapy functions of the spa.

The circ pump is efficient but it has to turn over the gpm to filter the water clean, solid foam hold the heat in but you still have to replace lost heat, and when you turn those pumps on high,  :-/

 

[alwaysperky]

Oh I know. I didn't press them with any of those of questions. Don't  those sorts of sales tactics drive you nuts?  And as far a credibility goes, can I believe any claim they'd make on quality, filtration or price?

I did however wonder if there was something to the idea that one spa would cost considerably less to operate than another based on whether they had a pump going all the time, or just some times. (All  other things being equal.)

If it's a matter of $5 bucks a month, it may not be material enough for Evergreen, or anyone else to consider.

 

[J._McD]

Oh I know. I didn't press them with any of those of questions. Don't  those sorts of sales tactics drive you nuts?  And as far a credibility goes, can I believe any claim they'd make on quality, filtration or price?

I did however wonder if there was something to the idea that one spa would cost considerably less to operate than another based on whether they had a pump going all the time, or just some times. (All  other things being equal.)

If it's a matter of $5 a month it may not be material enough for Evergreen, or anyone else to consider.

I agree, it is not really the $5 bucks, or is it $60 a year, or over 10 years $600 bucks, but it's the thought and that's salemanship.  Keep in mind, I sell product too, but it is the twist of the sales presentation that make us think about the differences.  

To split hairs between HS and SD is a challenge in itself, but no shopper wants to "buy" the wrong thing, again that's the salespersons job, to sell them on his brand.  The significant differences in filtration, I believe to be insignificant, but a salesperson can make it into a major difference.  

The same with electrical consumption, I think their statement is thought provoking, and I would like to know exactly what they mean by what they say.  It raises the issue in the consumers mind, but how do they back it up.

I, for instance, can say with confidence that I will guarantee chemical consumption for your Hot Tub to be less than $100 a year, or we will pay twice the difference, and we will stand behind that statement.  But, does that make my Hot Tub better or does it address the concept of dealer services and proper water management? ???

 

[ebirrane]

I, for instance, can say with confidence that I will guarantee chemical consumption for your Hot Tub to be less than $100 a year, or we will pay twice the difference, and we will stand behind that statement.

It's all salesmanship and it's all worth the same!  :  If you have a family of 5 living in your hot tub, you will both use  more than $100 in chems a year AND have more than $20 a month in electrical costs.

My HS dealer guaranteed less than $20 a month operation and *did* offer to hook the spa up to a meter for some period of time (1-3 months??) to prove it, and showed letters and readings from other customers who had taken him up on the offer.  

HS is one of the best insulated tubs on the market.  Heck, over last summer my electrical bill was only between $5 and $10 more than the previous summer (of course we keep the tub temp down in the summer to around 97).  

So what? You might nott miss the extra $5, $10,  or even $20 more a month you might pay for a different tub's consumption.  You might buy a less efficient tub but use it less, or a more efficient tub and use it more.  If you pay $130 per year in chems, you shouldn't worry too much about it.

My car requires 93 octane. I hate paying extra for it, but I don't hate it so much that I would rather have another kind of car.

The value of the HS claim is that they stand behind their product and excel in the areas where *they* feel the engineering is needed. It gives you some trust if the things important for your shopping are the things important to their engineering model.

That is why wet test is king and the one thing everyone can actually agree on. If you buy a HS tub to save $5-$10 a month on electrical costs and maybe $30 a water change on filters but don't like the tub layout that's foolish.  Buy it because you like the motomassage, or the open seating, or the therapy zones, or... go buy something else!

If you really can't decide between two based on several (really, several) wet tests, then you start splitting hairs.

BUT don't start splitting hairs with replaceable micro-filter versus the washable tri-x filters, the cost per month to operate, etc.. etc..  that's getting into the minutae where the salesmen live, and it is minutae that evaporates within one week of whatever you buy.

Start with the dealer himself. All tubs will have problems.  HS and Sundance owners alike have had problems on tubs they bought in the past year here.  The dealer is who takes care of you.

People make mountains out of molehills and there are alot of dealers on this board selling or practicing pitches or learning about the competition.  Just because there is a good and/or responsible dealer on this board for a brand doesn't mean that your local dealer will be a joy to work with.

Buy the tub that you want to sit in for 3 hours with friends.

-Ed

 

[pkud]

Is that $20 a month for a 110 volt spa, or is it $240 volt spa? ???

I do not believe any 240 volt spa could honestly make that claim.  How do the establish how much it does cost you on a month to month basis, winter or summer, and is there any cost to you to evaluate the electrical consumption. ? ???  I think they come out a put a meter on the system, but are they going to leave it there for how long?

Monthly cost of operation has a direct correlation to volts x amps = watts and 1,000 watts is a kilowatt and that is what we pay for.

the largest electrical consumers in the operation of a spa are the cost of filtration run time + the cost of heating the water + the use of the hydro therapy functions of the spa.

The circ pump is efficient but it has to turn over the gpm to filter the water clean, solid foam hold the heat in but you still have to replace lost heat, and when you turn those pumps on high,  :-/

I guarantee less then 12 dollars a month on all my HS models including the Vista and Envoy.  Although being FLorida makes a difference, not that much.  Many many HS dealers have written guarantees that state if your spa cost more than the guarantee states, the difference will be paid out to the customer over the next 2 years.  pretty strong selling point if you ask me.  These dealers are in the northeast, midwest, all the cold climates, and the spa still cost 12-15 bucks a month thru the dead of winter.  All other dealers carrying other manufactured spas should have there own guarantee if they claim such great energy efficiency.  Some customers that buy chems from me own different brands, X, Y, Z, and most of them claim 40-60 bucks a month depending on usage.  Thats outrageous, especially in FL.  makes you wonder what goes on throughout the rest of the country. ???
Oh, by the way, my guarantee states if you use the spa every day for 30 min per day, between 100-105 deg, otherwize cover being on, that spa will cost you less than 12 dollars a month.  The difference is unnoticable. 8)

 

[East_TX_Spa]

Same here.  About $15/month on Vista and Grandee.  Less than that on the smaller spas.

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