Bullfrog A7L, Caldera Geneva, Hot Springs High Life Envoy?

[Spayedkitty]

Hello,

We are narrowing down hot tub models. We like the Geneva and Envoy.  We are wanting to also look at the Bullfrog A7L. The problem with Bullfrog is that the closest dealer is 1.5 hours away.  The Geneva and Envoy are at about the same price point.  We have yet to price the Bullfrog.

Please give opinions on these models.  I want the good and bad.  Also what seems like a fair price for these models?  We are in Indiana.  So far we have seen a price difference on the Geneva of 3 grand depending on the dealer.  The lowest price we have found is 10,900.00 (no stereo) and the Envoy is in a similar range.

We are needing a tub for therapy, especially for my hips, pelvis, back, and neck.  We also want something that is going to last and be easy to maintain.

We have not wet tested yet.  We have an appointment to do so on the Geneva and Envoy.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Spatech_tuo]

Try to wet test them all on the same day or same weekend at least. You are talking about 3 very good brands so you're going in the right direction. The distance of 1.5 hrs to one of the dealers is potentially an issue and not something we generally recommend but sometimes depending on where you live your options can be limited. Next time you talk to that dealer ask up front what they might charge for service (yes even though the spa is under warranty they can charge for the trip out to your spa, especially when its that far away).

 

[bud16415]

We have had our Geneva for a few years now and are still quite happy with it. It is billed as a circuit tub where each seat hits a different area  and by moving thru the seats you get a full massage. I was a little skeptical about that but I have to say we normally trade places at least 3 times in the 3 main seats and each one is something different. I would say there are 3 of the 6 seats you will use 90% of the time in the Geneva and the 4th location isn’t a seat. There is a large jet on the edge of the foot well (I think the new Geneva has two of these.) and you can float over this jet and work places you cant get to any other way. When wet testing make sure to try that out on knees and hips etc. along with being able to divert power to the jets you want with things set to the middle position the massage is really nice in all 6 locations if you get a gang in there for socializing. Dealers don’t a lot of time explain the little things a tub has that you find out later. Ours also has a setting called whirlpool and it sends the water around a big circle. It is a very relaxing mode and great when you just want the hot water therapy.

I can’t comment much on the other ones as I have only been in the Envoy a couple times at a friends and it seemed nice as well. 

We paid about 12k for ours and that was a couple years ago.

 

[d00nut]

The lowest price we have found is 10,900.00 (no stereo) and the Envoy is in a similar range.

Super cheap.  We sell for more

 

[Spayedkitty]

Try to wet test them all on the same day or same weekend at least. You are talking about 3 very good brands so you're going in the right direction. The distance of 1.5 hrs to one of the dealers is potentially an issue and not something we generally recommend but sometimes depending on where you live your options can be limited. Next time you talk to that dealer ask up front what they might charge for service (yes even though the spa is under warranty they can charge for the trip out to your spa, especially when its that far away).

You are right, unfortunately I think we will be crossing Bullfrog off of our list.

 

[Spayedkitty]

We have had our Geneva for a few years now and are still quite happy with it. It is billed as a circuit tub where each seat hits a different area  and by moving thru the seats you get a full massage. I was a little skeptical about that but I have to say we normally trade places at least 3 times in the 3 main seats and each one is something different. I would say there are 3 of the 6 seats you will use 90% of the time in the Geneva and the 4th location isn’t a seat. There is a large jet on the edge of the foot well (I think the new Geneva has two of these.) and you can float over this jet and work places you cant get to any other way. When wet testing make sure to try that out on knees and hips etc. along with being able to divert power to the jets you want with things set to the middle position the massage is really nice in all 6 locations if you get a gang in there for socializing. Dealers don’t a lot of time explain the little things a tub has that you find out later. Ours also has a setting called whirlpool and it sends the water around a big circle. It is a very relaxing mode and great when you just want the hot water therapy.

I can’t comment much on the other ones as I have only been in the Envoy a couple times at a friends and it seemed nice as well. 

We paid about 12k for ours and that was a couple years ago.

Would you purchase a Geneva again?  How much do you spend on chemicals and is it easy to maintain the water?

 

[bud16415]

We have had our Geneva for a few years now and are still quite happy with it. It is billed as a circuit tub where each seat hits a different area  and by moving thru the seats you get a full massage. I was a little skeptical about that but I have to say we normally trade places at least 3 times in the 3 main seats and each one is something different. I would say there are 3 of the 6 seats you will use 90% of the time in the Geneva and the 4th location isn’t a seat. There is a large jet on the edge of the foot well (I think the new Geneva has two of these.) and you can float over this jet and work places you cant get to any other way. When wet testing make sure to try that out on knees and hips etc. along with being able to divert power to the jets you want with things set to the middle position the massage is really nice in all 6 locations if you get a gang in there for socializing. Dealers don’t a lot of time explain the little things a tub has that you find out later. Ours also has a setting called whirlpool and it sends the water around a big circle. It is a very relaxing mode and great when you just want the hot water therapy.

I can’t comment much on the other ones as I have only been in the Envoy a couple times at a friends and it seemed nice as well. 

We paid about 12k for ours and that was a couple years ago.

Would you purchase a Geneva again?  How much do you spend on chemicals and is it easy to maintain the water?

I would purchase the Geneva again. It is a very simple tub to maintain once I figured out what system worked best for us. It came with the frog inline feeder system that involves changing cartridges. We started before the @ease product was on the market so we were using bromine as a sanitizer and a mineral cartridge as a supplement of some kind. The bromine or now the @ease cartridge was supposed to last a month and the minerals 4 months if I remember right. I had a heck of a time with the bromine as it seemed the levels were up and down and I was constantly pulling the cartridge and changing the dispensing rate on it. Add to that they are not cheap. After about 6 months and several water changes hoping starting over would correct the messed up water levels I gave up on the cartridges and went with the simple much lower cost method of dosing the tub each night after we use it based on the usage with the Dichlor and bleach method. This method has proved to be the simplest and best and least costly method. When I clean and refill the tub I add Dichlor 1 tablespoon for the two of us using the tub for about an hour. The chlorine level goes up to 4 or 5 PPM and by the next evening it is 1 or 2 PPM and perfect for bathing. Of course I adjust the PH and such in the beginning as needed. After about 3 weeks I watch the stabilizer level and when it gets around 50 PPM CYA (that’s in the Dichlor to help the chlorine release slower. Once it hits 50 that’s all you need and then I switch from Dichlor to regular old cheap Clorox. I add about quarter cup in place of the Dichlor for the rest of the life of the water. Once every week or two I give it a shock with non Chlorine shock. It brings the sparkle back to the water and you will learn when to do it. If we have a heavy bather load with friends over I might double the Dichlor or Clorox if we skip going in for a day I just skip treating it. About once a week when I get in I take a microfiber cloth and wipe down the water line and the seats takes about 5 minutes and every other week I pull the filter and hose it off with hot water, another 5 minutes. I doubt I spend more than 30 minutes per month on labor, and maybe $10 a month on supplies.

When we go away for a week I just shock it good with Dichlor or Clorox before we leave taking it up to 10 to 20 PPM. If I’m going away for 2 weeks to a month I pop in a @ease cartridge.       

 

[TemptingDestiny]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

 

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

 

[Spayedkitty]

I would purchase the Geneva again. It is a very simple tub to maintain once I figured out what system worked best for us. It came with the frog inline feeder system that involves changing cartridges. We started before the @ease product was on the market so we were using bromine as a sanitizer and a mineral cartridge as a supplement of some kind. The bromine or now the @ease cartridge was supposed to last a month and the minerals 4 months if I remember right. I had a heck of a time with the bromine as it seemed the levels were up and down and I was constantly pulling the cartridge and changing the dispensing rate on it. Add to that they are not cheap. After about 6 months and several water changes hoping starting over would correct the messed up water levels I gave up on the cartridges and went with the simple much lower cost method of dosing the tub each night after we use it based on the usage with the Dichlor and bleach method. This method has proved to be the simplest and best and least costly method. When I clean and refill the tub I add Dichlor 1 tablespoon for the two of us using the tub for about an hour. The chlorine level goes up to 4 or 5 PPM and by the next evening it is 1 or 2 PPM and perfect for bathing. Of course I adjust the PH and such in the beginning as needed. After about 3 weeks I watch the stabilizer level and when it gets around 50 PPM CYA (that’s in the Dichlor to help the chlorine release slower. Once it hits 50 that’s all you need and then I switch from Dichlor to regular old cheap Clorox. I add about quarter cup in place of the Dichlor for the rest of the life of the water. Once every week or two I give it a shock with non Chlorine shock. It brings the sparkle back to the water and you will learn when to do it. If we have a heavy bather load with friends over I might double the Dichlor or Clorox if we skip going in for a day I just skip treating it. About once a week when I get in I take a microfiber cloth and wipe down the water line and the seats takes about 5 minutes and every other week I pull the filter and hose it off with hot water, another 5 minutes. I doubt I spend more than 30 minutes per month on labor, and maybe $10 a month on supplies.

When we go away for a week I just shock it good with Dichlor or Clorox before we leave taking it up to 10 to 20 PPM. If I’m going away for 2 weeks to a month I pop in a @ease cartridge.     
[/quote]

Almost 30 years ago I remember my x mother n law who owned a spa company using bleach in the hot tub.  I don't recall too much other than the bleach poured straight from the bottle.  I was wondering if the Frog cartridges were more of a gimmick that would require more money.  An Artesian dealer told me he quit ordering his floor models with the Frog system because customers were complaining of either too much chemical being released or not enough and that the cost is too expensive.  I don't know yet the Geneva or the Envoy.  I have to talk to both dealers again this week.  I have really been leaning towards the Geneva.  May I ask what you have yours placed on and do you live in a cold climate?  The warranty says it must be on a concrete slab or a deck.  One Caldera dealer told us gravel and another told us Slab or deck.  We plan on doing a slab.  I can't wait to get it.  Thank you for the information.  The fact that you would purchase the same model same brand again says a lot!

 

[TemptingDestiny]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

The Envoy (Highlife series) is still a level on it's own. There is no apples to apples when talking Geneva vs. Envoy other then similar shell shape.

Although the cabinetry can be a huge factor in your landscape DESIGN, it does nothing for the functionality of the tub itself. Wet testing will be what matters, because you are looking for relief and comfort. The Envoy has the ability to do super easy watercare as well.
Test soak. Then make a decision!

 

[Tman122]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

Dealers say stuff like this all the time. They get paid to sell their brand not the competition. It's called salesmanship and should be left out of your decision making process on these two brands. I would say they are both about the same in quality, longevity and energy efficiency. Go with the brand that feels best on your butt.

 

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

That's actually a pretty cringe-worthy statement especially when considering the 2 brands mentioned...Watkins Manf. builds both tubs, they both retail for 11-13k, but yet one is a Yugo and one is a Bentley? So basically everyone buying a Caldera over 10k is a getting an unreliable overpriced junker? is that what he's saying? Makes no sense at all, pure rubbish

 

[bud16415]

Almost 30 years ago I remember my x mother n law who owned a spa company using bleach in the hot tub.  I don't recall too much other than the bleach poured straight from the bottle.  I was wondering if the Frog cartridges were more of a gimmick that would require more money.  An Artesian dealer told me he quit ordering his floor models with the Frog system because customers were complaining of either too much chemical being released or not enough and that the cost is too expensive.  I don't know yet the Geneva or the Envoy.  I have to talk to both dealers again this week.  I have really been leaning towards the Geneva.  May I ask what you have yours placed on and do you live in a cold climate?  The warranty says it must be on a concrete slab or a deck.  One Caldera dealer told us gravel and another told us Slab or deck.  We plan on doing a slab.  I can't wait to get it.  Thank you for the information.  The fact that you would purchase the same model same brand again says a lot!

My Geneva sits on top of a 30” high wood construction deck I built. The tub weighs about 6000 pounds full of water and then add in the weight of people etc and you need a sturdy deck.

It is very cold where we live we get temps as low as –30f every winter and weeks at a time subzero. There were a couple things about the Geneva that I found appealed to me in this climate. First was the packed insulation material they call fiber-cor. It has amazingly good insulation factor and it can be easily removed and replaced if repairs are ever needed. In the case of a leak water travels straight down thru it and it is easier to pinpoint the leak. The second cold weather feature the Geneva has is the split GFCI breaker panel. I have 240v power off a 50a breaker in the house feeding the spa panel. Inside the panel there are 2 GFCI breakers a 20a and a 30a and then 7 wires running to the tub. The power to the heaters and to the pumps are two separate feeds. The tub is programmed so that if the heater goes in the winter the tub alerts you of that and goes into a survival mode. What it does is slowly circulate the hot water in the tub to keep pipes from freezing in the more exposed areas of the equipment area. In the winter with 103 104f water in the tub and zero ambient temps outside this gives the tub days of protection longer than without this feature to get a service man out to replace the heater.

Most of the sanitizing made simple devices I think are made to sell you overpriced products. Just like K-cup coffee. I personally think the salt generators are the way to go. But the ones offered as a in tub package are more of the same. I have a friend with an after market salt chlorine generator and it really works nice. I have more than once thought about getting one. I don’t feel they would damage a tub but the warranty might see it different is the only reason I haven’t.

Most of the products sold for spas have a inexpensive counterpart. Clorox type bleach is just one of them.   

 

[bud16415]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

That's actually a pretty cringe-worthy statement especially when considering the 2 brands mentioned...Watkins Manf. builds both tubs, they both retail for 11-13k, but yet one is a Yugo and one is a Bentley? So basically everyone buying a Caldera over 10k is a getting an unreliable overpriced junker? is that what he's saying? Makes no sense at all, pure rubbish

Agree and would actually give me a reason to not deal with that dealer. If it was a sales person I would have a talk with the owner. if it was the owner I would have a talk with Watkins.

 

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

The Envoy (Highlife series) is still a level on it's own. There is no apples to apples when talking Geneva vs. Envoy other then similar shell shape.

Although the cabinetry can be a huge factor in your landscape DESIGN, it does nothing for the functionality of the tub itself. Wet testing will be what matters, because you are looking for relief and comfort. The Envoy has the ability to do super easy watercare as well.
Test soak. Then make a decision!

Are you saying the Envoy High Life is on a level of it's own because it is better built, better materials or because it's more comfortable?  Also on the easy water care, are you referring to the salt system?

 

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

Dealers say stuff like this all the time. They get paid to sell their brand not the competition. It's called salesmanship and should be left out of your decision making process on these two brands. I would say they are both about the same in quality, longevity and energy efficiency. Go with the brand that feels best on your butt.

Well the Caldera dealer is 40 minutes away in another town.  The Hot Springs dealer is in the same town we live in.  I didn't really care for the gruff sales pitch of the Hot Springs dealer.  Still, being right in town I would think is a benefit.  Plus the Hot Springs dealer has been in business for a long time, also does in ground pools.  What is a fair price for the Envoy High Life?  The sales guy quoted me 12,500.00 for the Highest level Envoy.  He said that will be the one we want once we test it.  We don't want the stereo.

 

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

Geneva is similar to the Limelight series?  The price of the Geneva is the same at the Envoy High Life.  Why would the Geneva be the same price if it's a lower end tub than the High Life?  Actually another dealer quoted us 14 grand for the Geneva which is a lot more than the Envoy.

 

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

That's actually a pretty cringe-worthy statement especially when considering the 2 brands mentioned...Watkins Manf. builds both tubs, they both retail for 11-13k, but yet one is a Yugo and one is a Bentley? So basically everyone buying a Caldera over 10k is a getting an unreliable overpriced junker? is that what he's saying? Makes no sense at all, pure rubbish

Yes, the dealer was quite gruff in cutting me off and saying why would I want a Yugo.  I know both brands are made by Watkins and I am guessing from everything I have read, both are well made and well performing tubs.  We have been told so much conflicting information from each dealer, it makes my head spin. My husband says it's up to me, he's tired of the dealers and the looking.

We are tearing out our old patio and replacing with new and have to run electrical then we can get the tub.  Trying to decide on a concrete pad 4 inches or if pavers will be ok.  We are putting down limestone, then sand, then the pavers, probably tumbled cobblestone.  Some dealers tell us pavers are fine, others tell us gravel, and one Caldera dealer has told us NO, concrete pad.  He told us in a couple of years or less our tub won't be level and could even crack.  We are Indiana.  I know the warranty for Geneva says it must be on at least 4 inches concrete.

 

[Spayedkitty]

Almost 30 years ago I remember my x mother n law who owned a spa company using bleach in the hot tub.  I don't recall too much other than the bleach poured straight from the bottle.  I was wondering if the Frog cartridges were more of a gimmick that would require more money.  An Artesian dealer told me he quit ordering his floor models with the Frog system because customers were complaining of either too much chemical being released or not enough and that the cost is too expensive.  I don't know yet the Geneva or the Envoy.  I have to talk to both dealers again this week.  I have really been leaning towards the Geneva.  May I ask what you have yours placed on and do you live in a cold climate?  The warranty says it must be on a concrete slab or a deck.  One Caldera dealer told us gravel and another told us Slab or deck.  We plan on doing a slab.  I can't wait to get it.  Thank you for the information.  The fact that you would purchase the same model same brand again says a lot!

My Geneva sits on top of a 30” high wood construction deck I built. The tub weighs about 6000 pounds full of water and then add in the weight of people etc and you need a sturdy deck.

It is very cold where we live we get temps as low as –30f every winter and weeks at a time subzero. There were a couple things about the Geneva that I found appealed to me in this climate. First was the packed insulation material they call fiber-cor. It has amazingly good insulation factor and it can be easily removed and replaced if repairs are ever needed. In the case of a leak water travels straight down thru it and it is easier to pinpoint the leak. The second cold weather feature the Geneva has is the split GFCI breaker panel. I have 240v power off a 50a breaker in the house feeding the spa panel. Inside the panel there are 2 GFCI breakers a 20a and a 30a and then 7 wires running to the tub. The power to the heaters and to the pumps are two separate feeds. The tub is programmed so that if the heater goes in the winter the tub alerts you of that and goes into a survival mode. What it does is slowly circulate the hot water in the tub to keep pipes from freezing in the more exposed areas of the equipment area. In the winter with 103 104f water in the tub and zero ambient temps outside this gives the tub days of protection longer than without this feature to get a service man out to replace the heater.

Most of the sanitizing made simple devices I think are made to sell you overpriced products. Just like K-cup coffee. I personally think the salt generators are the way to go. But the ones offered as a in tub package are more of the same. I have a friend with an after market salt chlorine generator and it really works nice. I have more than once thought about getting one. I don’t feel they would damage a tub but the warranty might see it different is the only reason I haven’t.

Most of the products sold for spas have a inexpensive counterpart. Clorox type bleach is just one of them. 

The Fiber Core is a very attractive insulation for us.  My husband cringes at the thought of that sprayed foam that gets hard.  I think I may go visit the Hot Springs dealer tomorrow.  This is such an expensive item, I want to make the right decision since it's not something we can just return if we change our mind.  I've also read that the traditional full foam is out dated and it can actually cause leaks from vibration.