Thinking Out Loud

[drewstar]

I sent Emerald an E-mail asking for more information regarding thier FF upgrade and was surprised to get this response:


AUTHORS NOTE:  (March 3 2003)

I was contacted by Emerald and given the impression that posting the contents of  the e-mail  was not encouraged.  

I thank Emerald for replying, and althoughI thought thier email was informative, well written and to the point,  I will respect their wishes.  


To surmize: they told me they don't offer a FULL FOAM upgrade.  Thier upgrade  is a thermal reflective blanket added inside the shell.
Emerald employs TP technolgy and  wont use FF.

[Tatooed_Lady]

If I were to hop into this, I'd explain my thoughts as follows:
In Wisconsin it gets cold in winter. Damned cold, sometimes. When I want to go outside, I dress warmly. I wear a shirt, sweatshirt, jacket, boots, longjohns, gloves.....and HAT. All the other insulating layers I wear work well, but the HAT works wonders. So...ANY insulation in the cabinet will help, but it seems that we should be looking into better insulating COVERS instead of worrying so much about TP or FF. The COVER is the ONLY barrier between the hot water and the cold air. If it's substandard, it doesn't matter what we have for filling under the tub, it's still going to have horrible efficiency rates.
So, maybe one of the most obvious things for keeping costs low has been overlooked in the fight of "what's the best insulation?"....
Just MY $.02.....

[Veeper]

Ok....

Take out your lighter and see what happens when you put your fingers on each side of the flame.  Then, what happens when you put your hand over the flame.  Then tell me heat does not rise.

[Vinny]

I sent Emerald an E-mail asking for more information regarding thier FF upgrade and was surprised to get this response:

Thanks for your email.

Yes, we do offer an insulation upgrade.  However, it is NOT full foam.  Emerald uses Thermopane technology and will never be full foam.

Our Full Insulation upgrade adds a blanket of Reflectix insulation to our standard UltraFoam insulation.  This Reflectix insulation (picture is shown on our website) reflects the ambient heat that is being generated by the equipment back into the cabinet cavity.  We make this option available for the colder climates.

Hope this helps.

This is their top of the line insulation, it also added some extra foam on the spa shell and floor. When I was interested in Emerald, this was the insulation I was going to get ... it seemed the best bet for the winter and cooler months, I think at the time it was a $200 upgrade.

[Ehizzle]

I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.

[Steve]

Keep in mind that the body of water, as well as the evaporation that takes place requires the need for a quality cover. There’s more to consider than just heat rising off of the surface of the water here.

Inside the spa, we are also addressing the prevention of ambient air (assuming colder than the cavity) from entering it. Both full foam and a quality thermal pane (or better yet, a double thermal pane with Hydropool) can adequately prevent this. Energy efficiency isn’t just about preventing heat from escaping from the waters surface. It’s also about preventing the heater from coming on as often and it’s why I believe capturing residual heat (from the body of water as well as the pumps themselves) can aide in the ability to offer a more energy efficient product.

One other aspect of heat transfer not mentioned is heat induction. This will allow the heat from the body of water as well as the plumbing lines to radiate heat back into the cavity itself as Chas alluded to.

Steve

[Steve]

I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.

I call BS and question the way in which these results were concluded. This is very misleading and terribly inaccurate in my opinion and are in NO WAY "the norm". I would have told you the same thing 2 years ago when I worked for Beachcomber (a full foamed product) as well. It isn’t “biased” but rather knowledge based off of many years experience in this industry…

Steve

[Veeper]

I would agree with Steve.  Those $ numbers have to be BS.

[salesdvl]

OK, I started reading but then skimmed a few of the posts, hopefully I am still on topic.

L.A. Spas does offer FF as an option and it is a little more.  Having sold Hot Spring for over 20 years, I was originally a big advocate for FF.  However, after going to the L.A. factory and seeing that our "normal" foam comes out to about 2" from the cabinet, I no longer suggest to my dealers that it is a neccessary thing to pay the upgrade.  I feel that what L.A. calls regular is what some consider FF anyway.  L.A. does not need foam for structural support so it really isnt an issue either way.

To answer Terms initial question as to why, I think it is simply an option for those dealers that may go head to head with a FF brand and want it to negate a story.  

[windsurfdog]

I hope practical application is welcome here. I live in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. It get fairly cold in some of the surrounding areas. By actual customer experience. Spas that are not full foam in this arean cost anywhere from 40-150 dollars per month, while fully foamed spas cost 15-20. So, point in fact: Insulating the sides of the spa obviously have an impact, weather partial or full.

Sorry, ehizzle, but you've got to provide better data than that to support your conclusion.  I don't think there is anything obvious about your conclusion as you stated.

As for my own opinion, I believe, as stated in an earlier thread this week, that ff is more suitable for colder climates and tp is more suitable for temperate climates.  I think ff would do a better job retaining heat in a more severe temperature delta environment where tp would insulate just as effectively in an environment where temperature delta concerns are not a worry.  Also, I think tp does a better job keeping pumps cooled in hotter climates.

In reality, I think it boils down to which manufacturer does a proper job of whichever insulation technique is chosen.  In MasterSpas case, it looks as if they are trying to be all things to all people regarding their willingness to ff their spas--not necessarily a good idea.  I'd really like to see an ff MasterSpas tub......knowing that they position their motors on 3 sides of the spa, I'd be interested to see how they compartmentalize them.  I just can't imagine that it would be best ff implementation.....that's why I went with their standard technique when I ordered mine.

[salesdvl]

Years ago when I sold MasterSpas they offered FF and charged more for it rather than their reg program.  We always ordered the FF because we also carried HotSpring and wanted our stories to be similar.  However we never understood why it was more $$ for the FF because when you ordered their reg foam they had a worker stand there and painstakingly cut all the styrofoam sections with a heat knife to slide into the frame.  To us it always seemed like that would be just as expensive than to just have the foam guy keep going for another minute.  

[NJDave]

Hi Gang,
Here is a photo using infrared technology, to show heat loss in a home. And yes heat will escape all over the first floor of a house, anywhere that cold air is penetrating. So any piece of styrofoam, that is not tight on a TP Spa, then major heat loss will take place. As service company of every brand, we deal with frozen spas all winter. If a customer e-mails me on a Saturday night and says his spa is dead, will it freeze tonight? I ask what brand of spa they have, if it is a full foam spa, I tell them it can wait til Monday Morning. If it is a TP spa, I am giving them emergency instructions on what to do tonight, to prevent their spa from freezing. remember the big sales pitch with Thermo Pane, is the spa shell and equipment is kept warm, from heat coming off the motors, while the spa is running or cycling. The success of that concept is based on a tub that is running. Most freeze ups occur on spas that are dead or tripping the breaker, due to a short. So, how well will that piece of 3/4" styro foam keep the cold from getting to the pipes vs. a spa that is fully foam filled?

                                         
                                       

                               

[Chas]

Ok....

Take out your lighter and see what happens when you put your fingers on each side of the flame.  Then, what happens when you put your hand over the flame.  Then tell me heat does not rise.

Veep, you're new - but believe me this one has been beat to death. Your analogy is flawed. No, I will not put my finger in a flame to prove that heat goes any way it wants to, because there is no connection between the hot air rising off of an open flame and heat conductiing toward a cool surface or radiating toward a cool area or object. If you want to really make an anaolgy, why not simply use a spa? That is what we're talking about here.

Heat a spa, and put three inches of foam all around it (top included). It will stay warm for a long time. As is is sitting there, you can measure the heat loss and it will be equal all around - unless the tub is sitting on an ice cold slab, then the heat loss will be greatest in that direction. OR, if the plumbing allows the water to move from the insulated part to a colder uninsulated part, then the heat loss will be greatest there. If there is a cold wind hitting one side of our imaginary spa, the heat loss will be greatest on that side. If you take off the cover, the heat loss will be greatest there, but not because 'heat goes up,' It will be a big heat loss because you will have evaporation adding to the heat loss, and you may even have some raditation adding to the heat loss, and of course the air bubbles and turbulance of any jets will help to break down surface tension and expose more of the water to the cold air.  All of these things tend to make the top of a spa loose a lot of heat - but if you stop all of them by putting a cover on, the heat loss will stop. And once again, it will be the greatest on the bottom, or the plumbing etc.

All this talk of hats and attics is fun, but has no bearing on a body of heated water.

In my twenty years in the spa biz I have seen a simple truth: a poorly insulated spa costs a lot to run while a well insulated spa does not. The exact method of insulation doesn't make a dime's difference

[Steve]

Neat picture. I have an infared on a particular brand of spa that was 2 years old that I won't share the name with anyone here but it rhymes with Farctic. It clearly shows where the weak points are on the exterior of the cabinet.

All you Arctic folks will be glad to know that in all my dealer training seminars, I've never used it.    

Steve

[NJDave]

HeySteve,
Of course not.I am sure you have never shared the infrared shots with your dealers. I'm sure it would make for an interesting study, to photograph various manufacturers side by side, in the same envirement.