I'm a Nature 2 believer

[tony]

OK all this N2 love fest has my curiosity peeked, maybe it is time for another experiment.

Now to add a slight deviation what about the spa frog .....

I used the frog until the SunPurity came out a couple of years ago, so I have a couple of years of both the frog and nature2 experience.  I find identical results with each.  When I first started with the frog, I emailed King Technolgies with some questions about the contents of their cartridges and they got right back to me with answers.  The frog, which also works with bromine, has never claimed to eliminate chlorine (or bromine)...only to reduce the residual to .5 - 1 ppm.  This differs from nature2 who marketed itself as a chlorine alternative, but it seems that their new instructions include the daily use of dichlor and not MPS anymore.  I think I will go back to a frog next water change since I have been using nature2 for the past couple of years to see if I notice anything different.

[tony]

Thanks Stuart!  If you do reach Mr.Grenier, I've had a lot of questions about N2 that I've been waiting to ask an expert.  If you'd be willing to pass any of them along, I'd appreciate it:

1.  Some people lay the cartridge in the filter compartment, rather than install it in the filter as recommended.  Is this likely to affect performance?
2.  How quickly does the N2 reach a level where it is effective?
3.  Does it require a MPS shock or chlorine dose to activate it?
4.  Do the recommended MPS/Chlorine doses refresh the silver, release more, or just get contaminants out of the way?5.  Do other chems such as metal removers or clarifiers affect N2?
6.  How does N2 compensate for different size tubs?  Is it  dependent on a certain ppm, or does it reach a saturation point, leaving more material left in the cartridge in smaller tubs?
7.  Is all the material released in a short period of time, or does it enter the tub over the 4 month life of the cartridge?
8.  If it enters over time, is there enough left to justify reusing the cartridge if the water is changed at two months?
9.  If the opposite is true and it all enters quickly, and the beads are empty after a short period, is there any reason to leave the cartridge in after the first few weeks?
10.  It seems the directions recommend what would be considered the minimum sanitizer routine.  What does he consider the optimum?  

Thanks,
Reese

As usual, great post Reese.

You might ask the same questions to King Technology regarding the Frog.  www.kingtechnology.com

[stuart]

I will tell you that as far as mineral systems go I have found the D1 vision cartridge to be by far the fastest acting, longest lasting and most potent I have used. I see a difference overnight on the spas in my showroom when I put one in. They are expensive but work well.

As far as N2 working for some and not others there are some variables;

1. you can't use bromine with it (you can with the frog)
2. I've seen some clarifiers and sequestering agents cause it to be ineffective (Sequa sol for one)
3. Your water chemistry will affect just about any system you chose...if you don't keep everything else in line results will vary.

[Reese]

You might ask the same questions to King Technology regarding the Frog.  www.kingtechnology.com

Thanks Tony.  I tried contacting Zodiac with some of these questions when I first tried N2, but only got a FAQ form letter in return.   I think I'll wait to see if Stuart connects with Mr. Grenier.

Stuart, my impression has always been that the D1 Vision cartridge is just a larger, much more expensive version of N2.  Does it differ in any appreciable way?  Does it last for more than one fill?

[stuart]

Thanks Tony.  I tried contacting Zodiac with some of these questions when I first tried N2, but only got a FAQ form letter in return.   I think I'll wait to see if Stuart connects with Mr. Grenier.

Stuart, my impression has always been that the D1 Vision cartridge is just a larger, much more expensive version of N2.  Does it differ in any appreciable way?  Does it last for more than one fill?

For one it has about 3 times the sliver, second it lasts atleast twice as long.

It lasts for 6 months and I personally leave my water for up to 6 months. I'm sure that the addition of new water will depreciate the life expectency some but again I'm even going to run that by Joe on Monday if I can reach him.

[Reese]

... why does it work for some and not for others?...

I'm guessing who it "works for" is a matter of expectations, how much attention you pay to your water, and what you have to pay for the N2 cartridge.  IMO, its value is subtle, and hard to measure.  I don't view it as a having an economic return, rather an addition to my routine that has a marginal cost/benefit, but adds a safety margin and some perhaps some subjective water quality improvement.  The slight reduction in chlorine use certainly doesn't pay for it, and at the $25+ price many retailers charge, I wouldn't use it, or recommend it.  That is how marginal its value is to me.

[Vinny]

I'm guessing who it "works for" is a matter of expectations, how much attention you pay to your water, and what you have to pay for the N2 cartridge.  IMO, its value is subtle, and hard to measure.  I don't view it as a having an economic return, rather an addition to my routine that has a marginal cost/benefit, but adds a safety margin and some perhaps some subjective water quality improvement.  The slight reduction in chlorine use certainly doesn't pay for it, and at the $25+ price many retailers charge, I wouldn't use it, or recommend it.  That is how marginal its value is to me.

Actually the fact is this and ozone have me puzzled how there can be so much difference in people's opinion on their performance.

I will admit that I was a newbie at the time I used N2 and wasn't getting the 3 + months out of the water as I now get but didn't see any difference at the time. It could have been my newness to hot water care and this is why I'm willing to give it a shot ... although I doubt I'll cut down my dichlor amounts by too much. I was successful at only using 1 teaspoon of dichlor (without N2) for quite a while but there was no margin for error and the tub turned bad quickly once I made that error.

I believe Mendo told me (us?) that the Frog has the same amount as N2 but it has a finer silver product in it. I see ebay has a Frog cartridge for about $20.00 ... I'm still fighting the longevity between doses issue with my water and I'm willing to listen what people have to say about products ... even ozone! I can't believe that people get a week or so from their water on a regular dose and I would need to put in 12 PPM of dichlor to last a week.

As far as ozone is concerned ... I have 1 more year before my warranty is up on the tub. I estimate my ozonator will be about useless at that time so when the warranty is up, I'll put a more powerful ozonator in it (maybe add some extra tubing as a contact chamber) and see.

Tub's water is going to be changed in March ... I'm off to ebay!!!

[Vinny]

I bought 2 Frogs ... that forces me to try it for a while, at least 6 months and I guess my new experiment will be on in March ...

... stay tuned for details ...

[Reese]

Actually the fact is this and ozone have me puzzled how there can be so much difference in people's opinion on their performance....the Frog has the same amount as N2 but it has a finer silver product in it....

As I said before, I think a lot of it is expectation.  Most manufacturers and salespeople state the benefits of an ozonator as fact.  Even if you are not the type of consumer that buys into marketing hype, after you have been told how wonderful ozone or N2 is by enough people, you start to believe it, and aren't likely to evaluate it skeptically.  I see a lot of posts by new shoppers who are convinced of ozone's value before they've even purchased a tub, much less operated one, and others who have had ozone and/or N2 in their routine from day 1.  If you then experience easy water care, it is pretty easy to attribute it to what you were sold, when in fact, it may just be a sound primary sanitizer routine that got you there.  The most credible posts I see on the subject are from people like you, Tony and Anne, who have tried their tubs with and without, and most of them agree that these supplements may contribute something, but they aren't sure how much.   Given the subtle difference they seem to make, it is easy to see why some of us feel one or the other isn't worth the cost.

As far as the Frog, I hadn't heard about a finer grind of the coating material, but I was told once that it contains limestone as a buffer for the bromine it was designed to be paired with, while N2 also contains copper, due to its original design for pool use.  I don't know if either are true, but thought I'd share it.  From what I've been told, the performance is similar and the decision should be based on personal preference, cost, and whether you want the option to use bromine or not.

[Vinny]

Thanks Reese!

My concern with my water is the lack of longevity that apparently others get between doses. I read people say they get a week of clear water and I'm dumbfounded. Without chlorine lock (this is the second winter with the tub and it came back in the beginning) I get about 2 1/2 days between doses.

If N2 or in my case the Frog makes the bacteria cell weak and makes the water stay clearer longer, it'll be worth it. At this point I'm thinking it won't but I'm more experienced at hot water care than I was when I used N2 the first time, so we'll see.

As I keep saying - Ozone or at least my ozonator didn't do very much running it 24/7 vs the only 8 hours as I do now. That'll be the next experiment for me. Replace the ozonator with a higher output spa ozonator, maybe add a length of tubing or mixing chamber and see how that affects the water ... that will wait until the warranty is over as to not void any warranty.

[Reese]

...I still have Joes email and phone # lets drop him a line and see if I can still reach him after 10 years :-?

Stuart, did you ever get a chance to run all our Nature 2 questions by Mr. Grenier?

[stuart]

His email bounced back, the phone # didn't work and he was not in the company directory any longer.

I did a search on him and his name came up in some microbiology reviews and at a university in microbiology so I kind of quit trying....I left a message and an email with zodiac and they never responded.

[Reese]

His email bounced back, the phone # didn't work and he was not in the company directory any longer.  I did a search on him and his name came up in some microbiology reviews and at a university in microbiology so I kind of quite trying....I left a message and an email with zodiac and they never responded.

Thanks for trying!

[SpaNE]

Very interesting thread.  I have a new 336 gal spa using proclear mineral spa sanitizer and an ozonator.

The Nature2 instructions indicate to use MPS daily and shock weekly with dichlor.  Most of the spa maintenance routines I have read on this forum recommend the opposite - use dichlor daily and shock weekly with MPS or dichlor.

Questions:

1. Does Nature2 recommend this because they are promoting a low-chlorine option?  Is there any harm in using proclear with the daily use of dichlor?

2. If you tried Nature2 and did not like it - did you use daily dichlor or MPS?

Thanks,

[svspa]

SpaNE,

I think your assumption on number 1 is correct, they proclaim significant reduction in the need for chlorine.

I used N2 for the first 6 months with my tub. I would not follow their routine because it makes a lot of sense to me that you need some level of chlorine in your tub at all times to be safe.

I did not see a significant reduction in the chlorine requirement while maintaining a safe chlorine level, so I figured I would try without N2. Been without N2 for a year now. I do have ozone as well.

I can't say that I have any strong feelings either way, N2 may have helped keep my water cleaner, longer, but it definitely is not a primary sanitizer. So a normal dichlor routine should be followed. If the N2 is really helping it should allow you to have an FC residual longer, meaning lower doses/less frequent doses.

I think you will still need to base the cleanliness of your tub on your residual FC level.

Steve