TP Insulation

[Spiderman]

Just curious (and I'm not opening up any FF VS. TP can of worms here), I just was wondering.  If TP is as good as FF, does TP work as well as foam in other applications, like freezers, ect.?   Do coolers, freezers, ect, use TP methods, or isn't is possible??   :-?

[drewstar]

Thermal Pane works by creating a warm air barrier between the shell and the cabinet. If the air in this space is kept at a temperature equal to the spa water, there is no heat loss (as heat transfers from hot to cold). If the air is heated  greter than the desired water temp, the spa water is heated.

TP designs, such as artic,  maintian this thermal barrier by capturing the heat given off by the pumps. No system works 100% and there are many other issues and trade offs in the equation. But if you can heat the air via the waste heat at a rate greater than it's being lost, you  can maintian a thermal barrier and minimize heat loss from the water,  in effect "insualting it".    It's not a static system like foam, or fiberglass.  

Theramal pane  wouldn't apply to freezers and such, as with freezers your trying to "lock in the cold"  and stop warmer air from the outside of the freezer warming the inside via conduction throught the freezer walls.

[Brewman]

PSSSSSSST= The sound a can of worms makes when it opens.  This topic always gets heated debate.  

[Gary]

Charmin makes good TP and that dait no lie.

[drewstar]

No, let's not debate which is better (foam) ,   just explain how they work. Hopefully this will stop it from becoming a dead horse. but I think Spiderman asks a good question.  I've found a lot of folks think "thermal windows" or  "thermos bottle" when the term "Thermal Pane" comes up and there's a significant difference when we talk hot tubs.

[Brewman]

In it's simplest form, it's just a question of where you put the insulation.  
TP= minimal on the shell, airspace open under the cabinet, foamboard or similar on the inside of the cabinet.  
Pumps and plumbing all inside the heated air in the cabinet.  


Full Foam= Shell is heavily foamed to hold the heat in the water.  

Pumps outside of foam barrier, plumbing for the most part inside of the foam.

They both can work if done correctly.  

Thermopane is useless without tin foil and a fan, though.

[Chas]

PSSSSSSST= The sound a can of worms makes when it opens.  This topic always gets heated debate.  

Yes, but if that heated debate creates hot air, it will limit the heat loss from the vessel.

 8-)

[Tman122]

Thermopane without a heat source is limited to the amount of insulations r-factor. It's very easy to run your pump more to create the improved r-factor of the heat source, but now you have a diminished return because your running your pump more than is required. This is the factor that makes it a wash versus FF And as the thermopane style tub ages air leaks develop on the non quality brands that also diminish the insulations r-factor.  Also things like the access door and any venting for the warmer weather create air flow, and if this is not addressed during very cold snaps, your TP style will be loosing it's r-factor (heat source) quickly which will create a power hog. These issues never arise on the FF style of insulation skeem. However, plumbing/pumps/equipment..... it will last longer in a power down/freeze situation inside it's little warm air environment on a TP style tub as long as the cold wind is not blowing right through the cabinet cooling the space faster than the vessel heat can keep it warm. And I would never use this as a sales pitch because either way FF or TP a repair needs to be made ASAP. Only sales people who use the insulation as a selling point get ingrored or bantered by me, because it truely is a non issue. Remember Arctic and how they got blasted starting a few years ago when they first showed up on the boards pitchin how they were so much better because of there insulation??

[drewstar]

(hoof beats heard in the distance...)

TP relies on the large  pumps for:

- Maintinaing the warm air barrier.  Without it,  as Tman says, it's ability to provide effective insualtion is gone.

- Circulaton and filtration

- Therapy.

The main pumps does triple duty and is the heart of the system for the 3 main systems of a Thermal pane  tub.


Question: What is proably the single biggest failure of any tub? I am told the pumps,
Question: What produces the most strain on a pump? Starting it up.

[Gary]

(hoof beats heard in the distance...)




Question: What is proably the single biggest failure of any tub? I am told the pumps,
 

Consumers who do not take care of their spa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as the pumps go it is usually the pump seal that leaked and caused the front bearings to go out. Why do the seals fail, so first sentence.

[drewstar]

As a consumer  what am I expected to do in order to properly take care of my pumps? I did not see anything in the maual, or warrenty. Did I miss something?

[Chas]

pH

Do not use a floating feeder except for Brilliance.

 8-)

[Brewman]

Capturing waste heat from a pump is one thing, but using it a heat source is another.
 Electric motors, I've heard, prefer a cooler operating environment than a hotter one.
Not sure if the lack of circulating air would affect longetivity of the motors?


(Hoofbeats- not so distant now)

[tony]

Capturing waste heat from a pump is one thing, but using it a heat source is another.
 Electric motors, I've heard, prefer a cooler operating environment than a hotter one.
Not sure if the lack of circulating air would affect longetivity of the motors?


(Hoofbeats- not so distant now)

I agree.  I never could understand why one particular individual advocates the running of pumps for eight hours per day to keep water warm.  I still feel the most efficient way to heat water is with a heater.

[drewstar]

I agree.  I never could understand why one particular individual advocates the running of pumps for eight hours per day to keep water warm.  I still feel the most efficient way to heat water is with a heater.

I know of one place that recomends running them 24/7  in the cold weather.

At what point  do you cross the line of "insutlation" and cross over into realm of "secondary heat source"