Ozone Question. (Very Technical)

[svspa]

Didn't someone post Vermonter's analysis of ozone not too long ago? I searched for it but didn't find it.

I think that's the most complete dissertation on the +/- of ozonators in hot tubs that I have seen.

Ehizzle if you haven't seen that document then I hope someone can track down the link. Vermonter gives a pretty thorough analysis.

I think the summary pretty much matches up with what folks have said. If you have a powerful enough ozone generator and a mechanism to expose every drop of water in your tub to ozone for the right contact period, on a constant cycle then they work extremely well as sanitizers.

Those parameters just aren't met with the current ozonators in hot tubs.

But yes ozonators in tubs can help as a secondary sanitizer and 24/7 sounds better than part time. My jacuzzi has a 24/7 circ pump and ozonator, but dichlor is my primary sanitizer.

Steve

[Ehizzle]

Thanks for the input. I hope someone finds that also. It's funny how little actual research I could find on the web.

[SerjicalStrike]

It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones.  People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine.  When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.  

Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING.  It just means it is OXIDIZING.  

[Tman122]

It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones.  People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine.  When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.  

Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING.  It just means it is OXIDIZING.  

I took one of those HUGE old UV units out of a tub the other day. The owner looked a little fuzzy. The bulb was so big the tub had to glow at night!! Probably had a power draw to match. I think the whole neighborhood was sanitized!!!

[clover]

It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones.  People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine.  When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.  

Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING.  It just means it is OXIDIZING.  

Serj, You have been around a long time in this industry to remember ozone doing such a good job.  You can remember when......

Ozone molecules however, can not distinguish between Sanitizing (killing bacteria or viruses) or Oxidizing (oxidizing minerals and nutrients).  A molecule of O³ is unstable and simply in search of a like atom which it takes from any molecule of mineral, nutrient, bacteria or viruse.  O³ then divides to become 2 molecules of O² and the molecule from which it took the like atom is now dead matter or oxidized matter to be filtered clean from the water.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 For what it matters I talked to the tech guys at Jacuzzi according to them a 50mg ozonator puts out 50 milograms of ozone per hour. They could not and I am not sure that anyone can tell you how much of that is absorbed into the water it must be a certain percentage??

  One thing I found as this was faxed to me by Jacuzzi from a list of frequently asked questions.

 Ozone is an unstable compound generated by the exposure of oxygen molecules to a high energy electrical discharge.  As the ozone molecule is unstable,as ozone is created,a reaction occurs upon collision between an ozone molecule and a molecule of an oxidizable substance i.e, bacteria,fungi and viruses as well as some forms of iron and maganese.  During the oxidation reaction,organic molecules are changed and dissolved metals are no longer soluble. The weak bond splitz off and the by-product resulting is normal oxygen.

 If any of you guys/gals want a copy of it I would be more than happy to fax it to you, just pm me your #

[Reese]

...I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective. That's absolutely hogwash...

Hogwash?? Poppycock, balderdash, baloney, perhaps -- but hogwash?  

I have the impression that your opinion is based on the fact that your old tub didn't have ozone, and you had water quality problems, while your new tub with ozone is easier to keep clean.  Surely, your certainty is based on more than your observation of your, one, tub?  How can you be sure that your improved water quality is based on ozone, and not other factors.  Perhaps you have tested bacteria growth with the ozone on and with it off?  Or, are you basing your "fact" on the numerous internet posts stating (an opinion) that it works?  Or, do you believe it because your nice salesman told you so?  

Anecdotes like Clover's, T-Man's and the like certainly would indicate that it is possible ozone contributes something to hot-tub maintenance, however... ozone's properties, as outlined by others in this thread, make it unlikely to be able to perform the "miracles" attributed to it by some.  If you have access to scientific research that proves your position, and demonstrates ozone's effectiveness in a hot-tub environment, please share it.

If you were just objecting my analogy, how about this one instead (it was a looong sermon):  Ozone appears to be like Santa Claus, it only brings benefits to the homes of believers. 8-) 

[Reese]

...IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?...

Didn't Detroit automakers and cigarette manufacturers use similar defenses?

[Vinny]

Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.

I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.

I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.

What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.

IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.

The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.

Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.

Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.

[Vinny]

...IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?...

Didn't Detroit automakers and cigarette manufacturers use similar defenses?

Cigarettes and ozone are both bad for your lungs ...

As far as the automakers it's all the foreign competion ... of course the workers south of the border are living in complete luxury and own 2 or 3 autos.

[clover]

Ozone appears to be like Santa Claus, it only brings benefits to the homes of believers. 8-) 

LOL, I really like that, so it is true.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.

I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.

I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.
What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.

IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.

The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.

Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.

Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.

 Like I said earlier,I am pro ozone!!
I think very few people rely on ozone only and no chems in there spa,If you want to test the theory try this, keep the ozone hooked up but quit adding chlorine and or mps to your spa keep track of how many days it takes the water to go south on you.

 Now most people will not go this far but get your water back up to par then unhook your ozone and without adding any chems keep track of how long it takes your water to go bad. Of course you would have to use your spa the same amount of time and same bather load as before.

   in a perfect world this should tell you if your ozonator really makes a difference or not.  Now I guess this will also depend on how well your spa filters and what type of filter it is.    But thats for another debate.

[Vinny]

Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.

I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.

I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.
What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.

IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.

The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.

Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.

Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.

 Like I said earlier,I am pro ozone!!
I think very few people rely on ozone only and no chems in there spa,If you want to test the theory try this, keep the ozone hooked up but quit adding chlorine and or mps to your spa keep track of how many days it takes the water to go south on you.

 Now most people will not go this far but get your water back up to par then unhook your ozone and without adding any chems keep track of how long it takes your water to go bad. Of course you would have to use your spa the same amount of time and same bather load as before.

   in a perfect world this should tell you if your ozonator really makes a difference or not.  Now I guess this will also depend on how well your spa filters and what type of filter it is.    But thats for another debate.

I did that! Don't mess with a Techno Junkie!!! It has already been established that I like wearing lab coats.

I own one of the few tubs (Artesian) that can control ozone time with the controller. I have a circ pump and I can have ozone off or on up to 24 hours for 2 hour intervals. What a manufacturer! 8-)

I found that with 0 ozone my tub stays about the same as with 8 hours. With 24/7 ozone I get 1 whole day more. Did it work -yes, somewhat. But I got more time of clear water with putting 10 PPM dichlor in.

As I said I will experiment with a higher output ozonator. I think Del has the marketing wrapped up nicely but it probably isn't "the best". Of course since it can't be measured anyone can claim it is percieved to be working ... like I do now! 8-)

[Bill_Stevenson]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread.  One thing that was not mentioned is that ozone is a pollutant and as such is closely monitored by the EPA.  It is very probable that if ozonators were built to put out more ozone they could run foul of Big Brother.  In a practical sense, ozonators are of limited value.  I use one, but side with Doc in wondering if it is more placebo than effective.  BTW, I am a chemical engineer and would like to single Anne's comments out for particular praise.

Bill

[svspa]

Jacuzzi Jim,

I think you are right no one is using only an ozonator. But what scares me is the daily MPS routine some mfrs/dealers are promoting. They say that with ozone and N2 you give your tub a daily dose of MPS and only 2 dichlor doses a week.

Seems to me that could easily mask issues with the bacteria level in your tub between dichlor doses. You might be able to maintain clear water but what's growing in there when your sanitizer level gets to zero.

I think ozone and n2 should be promoted for what they are, secondary sanitizers that 'help' your primary sanitizer. You still need a good primary sanitizer routine.

Steve