Ozone Question. (Very Technical)

[Tman122]

Tman,

Your analogy of stumbling upon them is probably a correct senario. We're talking small distances here probably in nanometers ( that's 10 to the -9 power) or smaller which is equivilent in that world as the distance of NYC is to Chicago in ours.
There's no question that ozone applied correctly is a powerful oxidizer/sanitizer but is a spa's ozonator applying ozone correctly?
On Doc's site years ago Vermonter posted a response about an effective kill with chlorine. He posted  that the contact time and exposure time in minutes when multiplied together needs to be 2400 (I think this is the figure) in order for scientists to believe a 99.99% effective kill.
How much ozone is in the spa's water? Without knowing this one can't assume that ozone will bump into anything. I think that the ozone's closest proximity to anything is at the injector port. Looking at the injector in my tub there seems to be a brown residue on the exit side of the injector which is "proof" that the injector is doing something.
I'm thinking that as inefficient as a spa's ozonator is based on other industry's use of ozone. The more ozone being produced at the injector the more likely it'll bump into something at the injector. Maybe they meet in the hose leading to the contact chamber or in my case the tub (remembering that we are talking nanometers) but I'm thinking in terms of a vast universe  in terms at a molecular level, it'll be like an asteroid hitting the Eath - it may happen but very infrequently.

And there ya go. This is exactly why no matter how an Ozone system is sold, we have the best this or the best that, ours cost 1000 bucks because it's the best.....blah blah...it still comes down to one thing, we or them have no idea if one O3 molecule will come in contact with one bacteria molecule and destroy each other. So it should never be relyed on to sanitize nothing, including a 75 million dollar city water O3 system, so, dump a little chlorine in there.

A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?

[Vinny]

A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?

And in my limited experience of 1 tub with ozone I still have to go out there a few times a week to add chlorine other wise I have a bacteria laden tub. Funny thing is as the tub gets more and more bacteria you would think the ozone becomes more efficient at bumping into it ... oh well, the mystery of life wasn't solved again!

[anne]

A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?

And in my limited experience of 1 tub with ozone I still have to go out there a few times a week to add chlorine other wise I have a bacteria laden tub. Funny thing is as the tub gets more and more bacteria you would think the ozone becomes more efficient at bumping into it ... oh well, the mystery of life wasn't solved again!

Seems like the problem may be that you are not using your tubs enough, if you have to go out just to add chlorine! Simple fix for that!

[Reese]

IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle.  It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)

Naw....I don't believe this...

Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/

Ozone is like religion.  No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much.  In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...)  Seems like a leap of faith to me.

[Reese]

Have there been any unbiased experiments/studies conducted for spa ozone systems in the past that we can refer to?...  

I've tried in vain to find anything that addresses this topic in a scientific manner.  The closest is the tests that Vermonter talked about where he measured bacterial growth in his one tub.  The lack of information is one of the reasons I am skeptical about its benefits in a hot-tub.  If the ozone unit manufacturers, and the tub manufacturers that sell them, could prove a benefit, it would be easy for them to find a grad student that would be willing to do some research.    

[anne]

IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle.  It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)

Naw....I don't believe this...

Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/

Ozone is like religion.  No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much.  In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...)  Seems like a leap of faith to me.

I like that analogy, but I'm pro-ozone, and agnostic. Some could be offended by such an analogy, because of the disparity of the importance between the two, but I think it works really well, and I understand that you're not comparing the two, just using the theme for reference.  

[Tman122]

IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle.  It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)

Naw....I don't believe this...

Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/

Ozone is like religion.  No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much.  In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...)  Seems like a leap of faith to me.

I like that analogy, but I'm pro-ozone, and agnostic. Some could be offended by such an analogy, because of the disparity of the importance between the two, but I think it works really well, and I understand that you're not comparing the two, just using the theme for reference.  

I like this analogy also, I do use Ozone and have tryed the same routine without ozone, I purchased a new unit and installed it. So......some of those brainless O3 molecules must be bumping into some of those even more brainless bacteria molecules.

[anne]

Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!

I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!!

[hottubdan]

I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Tman122]

Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!

I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!!

Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!

No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.

But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.

[drewstar]

Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!

I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!!

Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!

No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.

But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.

Tman,

I more along the lines with you.  It's been my experince that a quality Corona Discharge 03 unit runnin 24 7 works.  It makes water care easier for me. like you,  If I'm not in the tub for several day, my water stays clean and clear without a problem.

I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective.
That's absolutely hogwash. O3 is a proven sanitizer. With a proper delivery method, folks using it expereice using less sanitizer, and cleaner clearer water without having to add addiitonal sanizters between uses.

[clover]

Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!

I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!!

Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!

No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.

But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.

Ozone works good for some, better for others, and not at all for some, it is largely dependent on the coach or support team (the dealer).  If the coach is a proponent of ozone and understands it, his instruction and guidance can and will make a difference.  If the coach is a cynic of ozone and doesn't believe much in it's abilty or understand it's operation, it is most likely you will not achieve better performance levels.

A customer had been experiencing persistent water clarity problems on his brand new spa for more than 6 months that just should not be .  The spa manufacturer would not let us change out the CD ozonator under warranty because the indicator light indicated that it was working and you could hear the "buzz".  They sent us a natures 2 and a new filter, "free of charge" for the customer.  

Our customer was extermely frustrated with his experience and understandably so.  If we were cynics, then there is your proof the presence of ozone can not be tested for and is therefore not reliable.  But, because we "believe" differently, and are proponents of ozone, we knew the water quality should be different than what it was.  

We made several trips to monitor their water as they followed our prescribed procedures.  We endured their frustration and persisted in the interest of our customer.  We changed out the ozonator at our expense and within a week the difference in his water was remarkable.  The CD unit was sent back for evaluation and has never credited to our account.  That too should make us cynics.

IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?  Which BTW, is much more widely used and accepted today than ever before becoming "standard" equipment leaving the factory even by HS.

[Ehizzle]

WOW y'all wrote allot while I was gone.

I had a thought while catching up on reading your comments. Again as I said before, I do not know where HS got this number.
Anne, I really like your first thought on this topic. However, I would tend to disagree with the "no minimum" required for effective sanitation. If we can take what seems to be the majority opinion that says, "Ozone sorta just bumps into whatever bacteria happens to be in its short lifespan at close proximity." If we believe this than the number presented by HS which say 250 ppm is required for effective sanitation, may have some merit.
Since we agree that it is not likely for all the O3 to "bump into" bacteria, more would mean more chance for this to happen. I would hypothesize that HS is suggesting that 250ppm is the amount per million of Ozone required to effectively bump into enough bacteria to make it worth while.
Like I said just a poorly educated hypothesis. Let me know what you think.

[Tman122]

WOW y'all wrote allot while I was gone.

I had a thought while catching up on reading your comments. Again as I said before, I do not know where HS got this number.
Anne, I really like your first thought on this topic. However, I would tend to disagree with the "no minimum" required for effective sanitation. If we can take what seems to be the majority opinion that says, "Ozone sorta just bumps into whatever bacteria happens to be in its short lifespan at close proximity." If we believe this than the number presented by HS which say 250 ppm is required for effective sanitation, may have some merit.
Since we agree that it is not likely for all the O3 to "bump into" bacteria, more would mean more chance for this to happen. I would hypothesize that HS is suggesting that 250ppm is the amount per million of Ozone required to effectively bump into enough bacteria to make it worth while.
Like I said just a poorly educated hypothesis. Let me know what you think.

Not nessesarily poorly educated, more like your best guess. Which is about what everyone is doing. There is no dout that O3 kills bacteria. And as stated above a good and reliable sanitation regimen that includes O3 and makes the end user happy is just that, a good sanitation routine. But if a good and reliable sanitation regimen does not include O3....hey whatever works. I think theres alot of merit in the 24/7 introduction of O3 being maybe a bit better at getting these molecules in contact. A good contact chamber, whether it be with a 24/7 system or a timed filter system will also improve these chance meetings of molecules. And output of O3 generators will also help. But even with all the help you can give to your match making between these molecules theres still the chance that 0-5-10-20-30-40-50 or even as high as 99 percent of your hook ups will fail....sigh. Just like real life.

I can't believe in all this disscusion regarding Ozone some water treatment plant guru don't own a hot tub some where in this country. This guy may be able to give us some real data as it applys to water treatment that we may be able to cross to a hot tub environment.
10

[anne]

But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.

I was not mislead- I did not anticipate a significant decrease in chlorine use, I just anticipated a sanitation system with a little more forgiveness if I went a few days not using it, or less concern if I tubbed in the morning and did not add any chlorine if I planned to be back in it at night  .

I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective.
That's absolutely hogwash. O3 is a proven sanitizer. With a proper delivery method, folks using it expereice using less sanitizer, and cleaner clearer water without having to add addiitonal sanizters between uses.

IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?  Which BTW, is much more widely used and accepted today than ever before becoming "standard" equipment leaving the factory even by HS.

I dont think that anyone here has called ozone meaningless. The biology of it simply makes sense- it DOES kill bacteria- but does it do so enough to "matter"? This probably varies between quality of ozonators. Another analogy: aerobic exercise is good for me- it will help me burn fat, maintain a lower resting heart rate, yada, yada, yada. But if I go out and run once around the block, then sit down at my desk for 8 hours, I shouldn't expect to get in shape. I just wonder how many ozone units out there are producing enough ozone to "matter" and mixing it with the water enough to ensure contact with bacteria. I dont regert having one- I do think it makes a difference, but since it's effects are very hard to quantify, and  its presence is impossible for an owner to verify, it becomes "like religion."