Need Help comparing tubs

[Reese]

Sorry, that question wasn't directed at you.  I was asking "my grandee" who she worked for.  Watkins is the parent company of several brands including HotSpring and Tiger River.  I would disregard her comments regarding Arctic energy consumption and the superiority of full foam insulation.  The consensus on this board is that the type of insulation is not as important as the execution, and most of the major brands (including the ones you are considering) will have similar energy costs.  The other folks have given you good advice, the choice of tub should come down to your personal preference, and your evaluation of the Arctic warranty throught the dealer.  IMO, the only way the used tub is worth that much is if you are certain that the dealer warranty is reliable.

[ndabunka]

The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term.  It's a thermal barrier design.  It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in".   Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance).  Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)?  The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation).  The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area.  No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating.  IMHO full foam is a better insulator.  My vote is for the Sundance.  And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty.  Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said".  Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.

[anne]

The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term.  It's a thermal barrier design.  It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in".   Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance).  Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)?  The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation).  The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area.  No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating.  IMHO full foam is a better insulator.  My vote is for the Sundance.  And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty.  Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said".  Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.

The person using the term "heatlock" was me, simply because that is what Arctic calls it, and I had no claim about the warranty. This thread is going to end up in the dogfood, AKA Dead Horse forum if you turn this into a TP vs FF debate. There is no proof that one is better than the other, or more cost effective; everyone has an opinion here, and everyone is RIGHT, right?.

Kirby- go with the wet test. Buy the one that you LIKE BEST. When you are happy soaking in your comfy tub, it wont matter anymore how it is insulated.

[D.P. Roberts]

Here's the Arctic warranty:

http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/37/37/&show_warranty=29

Notice that the Lifetime shell warranty applies to "the customer", but the other parts of the tub specifically say they apply to "the original owner."

Perhaps- and this would just be my guess- the shell warranty can be transferred, but the mechanicals are warranted for the original owner only. In that sense, they can claim that the warranty is transferable. That sounds just "lawyerese" enough to make sense.

I've heard the "7.5 years = lifetime" warranty thing before- I have no idea whether it's true or not, but it's not applicable in this case. No part of the Sundance warranty has a "lifetime", all parts of the warranty are for a specific number of years.

This is not to knock Arctic at all - it just sounds like a lot of the "features" you mentioned might be marketing tools that the Arctic salespeople pointed out to you, and not necessarily useful ways to compare these two spas.

IMHO, I'd wet test, and buy the one that feels the best to you. There's no reason to compare warranties if you end up buying a tub you don't like very much. After that, though, both Arctic and Sundance are reputable brands - all things being equal I'd buy the one that's brand new and comes with a warranty that covers the whole tub.

[Tman122]

The term "Heatlock" is simply a marketing term.  It's a thermal barrier design.  It doesn't REALLY "lock heat in".   Thermal barrier designs are fine when the pumps run alot (read as pumps running more often requires more electricity and therefore a higher cost than a full foam spa) but that is not necessarily a better design than a full foam spa (like the sundance).  Here's something to consider in your environment... What happens when the power fails (for days on end)?  The full foam WILL keep the water warmer longer (simply due to the physics as it has more insulation).  The thermal barrier uses air to insulate and pump heat to augment that area.  No pump operation, no heat augmentation and therefore only air is insulating.  IMHO full foam is a better insulator.  My vote is for the Sundance.  And the person using that "Heatlock" term may also be using the "transferable warranty" term with equal liberty.  Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it "what they said".  Get warranty coverage IN WRITTING BEFORE you give them a deposit.

I'd like to clarify this a bit bunka, theres a certain amount of plumbing on a FF spa that is outside the insulation. This plumbing outside the insulation WILL freeze faster than the plumbing on the Thermal Barrier type of insulation skeem the Arctic brand uses as long as it is a good TP barrier and relitivly air tight. The heat transfered from the vessel to the cabinet air space will help to protect the plumbing longer, but it will also allow a quicker drop in overall vessel temp.

My words are....regardless of the insulation method you will need to remedy any possible freeze situation ASAP. And a small heater or trouble light can extend your down time but, YOU STILL NEED TO REMEDY ANY POWER DOWN SITUATION ASAP with any brand or insulation method.

[perogie]

Its a simple question answer what will freeze first, a pump/motor sitting outside at -30 or a thermos with hot water in it?  a pump outside with freeze in 3-4 hours.  A thermos will take days to freeze.  Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door.   This you can not do on a Full foam.

[hottubdan]

 Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door.   This you can not do on a Full foam.

Why can you not put a small heat source in the equipment/non foamed area of a "full foam" spa?

Here we go again!

The original question was should one buy a used Arctic for more money than a new Sundance.

[Reese]

Its a simple question answer...

Welcome to the forum, perogie!:)

Since you are new here, you'd have no reason to know that this issue has been discussed ad nauseum (ndabunka, what's your excuse? ).  Now that we've had equal time FF/TP, perhaps we can move on.  Most threads addressing TP/FF have ended up in the "Beating a Dead Horse" section.  Look them over, and if you have something new to add, please revive one, or start a new thread here.  Lord knows we could use some new controversy, but I doubt it would help Kirby make a decision in this thread.

[perogie]

sorry for the bad post... kirbey had asked about cold weather and I live in winnipeg manitoba so we have cold weather.   To answer the question of why you can't put a heater in a foam filled, i should have qualified my statement better... if you go to work at 8am, and power goes out at 9am... and you dont get home till 5pm.... and the power problem with the tub hasnt been fixed then the pump sitting out side at -30 for 8 hours will have froze and mostly cracked.   So you might not have much water in the tub.

Now to help kirbey...

one tub is 7' the other is 8'
one tub is at the max for jets, the other has the potential to be upgraded to 61 jets.
one tub has a fully structured floor that can be placed on any level ground, I'm not sure for sundance what the base requirements are, but most other makes of tubs require a concrete pad.
one tub has the ability to upgrade to new features that might come out.

just somethings to think about, but the main thing is that which ever tub you buy make sure you sit in them either wet or dry to make sure the tub gives you the comfort you are looking for and the massage of the jets is where you want it.
you never buy a pair of shoes without trying them on.

[martyz4]

so it boils down to the wet test and the size thats right for you. we have a sundance maxxus and love it. we did wet test a few before arriving at our decision. it really made our minds up. also someone said something about the sundance not cycling on and off. i do believe ours does.

[tony]

sorry for the bad post... kirbey had asked about cold weather and I live in winnipeg manitoba so we have cold weather.   To answer the question of why you can't put a heater in a foam filled, i should have qualified my statement better... if you go to work at 8am, and power goes out at 9am... and you dont get home till 5pm.... and the power problem with the tub hasnt been fixed then the pump sitting out side at -30 for 8 hours will have froze and mostly cracked.   So you might not have much water in the tub.

Now to help kirbey...

one tub is 7' the other is 8'
one tub is at the max for jets, the other has the potential to be upgraded to 61 jets.
one tub has a fully structured floor that can be placed on any level ground, I'm not sure for sundance what the base requirements are, but most other makes of tubs require a concrete pad.
one tub has the ability to upgrade to new features that might come out.

just somethings to think about, but the main thing is that which ever tub you buy make sure you sit in them either wet or dry to make sure the tub gives you the comfort you are looking for and the massage of the jets is where you want it.
you never buy a pair of shoes without trying them on.

You're sounding very much like an Arctic salesman.

If I lived in such a severe environment, I would add some styrofoam panels to the cabinet of the equipment compartment and create an equipment compartment "heatlock" that could be removed in more temperate seasons.  Probably not necessary but extremely easy to do and may give peace of mind.

[drewstar]

Its a simple question answer what will freeze first, a pump/motor sitting outside at -30 or a thermos with hot water in it?  a pump outside with freeze in 3-4 hours.  A thermos will take days to freeze.  Also if you do have a freeze up where you can not get a service person out, you can put a small heat source in the cavity of the TP and close the door.   This you can not do on a Full foam.

What spa employs the same principles as Thermos? Did the salesman give you the "Thermos" analogy?

A "Thermos" seal is a vacumm seal. A hermeticly seal unit.   A Heat lock system (theraml pane)  does not insulate this way.  Quite the opposite.

A thermal system insualtes by keeping the air inside the cabinet at a high temperature, as close to or greater than the desire water temp. The Heat lock system keeps the air warm by running the jet pumps several times a day. It's a system that overly depends on the pump motors working a heck of lot.   Lose you electricty and the very heart of your insulation system is lost. Foam is not dependant on electricity to maintian it's insulation ability.

A heat lock system will freeze quicker than a full foam if the integrity of the "thermal barrier" is lost. (How long will your coffee stay hot if you break your thermos seal?  

That being said, a high quality thermal tub can insualte just as well as Full foam. There are differences in how the pumps run, but for the most part,  among higher end tubs, it's a non issue for insulation.

Then again, if by "Thermos" you didn't actually mean the "Thermos" vacuum seal, but used the word  to descibe any type of insulated bottle, say a Coleman bottle, or cooler, then perhaps you are right, as those are insualted with a dense foam.  

[Reese]

sorry for the bad post...

There are no bad posts, only bad posters...wait...hate the post, not the poster...I get so confused.  It wasn't a bad post, just one that could open a can of worms.

As you can see, the insulation question can go on an on, as there is always someone who knows that with the addition of their explanation, the issue will be settled in their favor. The same is true for reciting any company's marketing points.  You can't put them out there as superior without expecting another brand to counter them, so nothing gets resolved.  IMO, if you think a particular feature is something that might be useful in the situation being discussed, it is fine to raise it -- as long as it is presented in a fashion that acknowledges it isn't the only valid way of doing things.

[Gary]

I have checked into it and they do transfer the warranty.  Thanks.

From Arctic:

5 years to the original owner [size=14][/size]

If someone told it was transferable I would ask to see it in writing.

[Gary]

Here's the Arctic warranty:

http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/show_content/37/37/&show_warranty=29

Notice that the Lifetime shell warranty applies to "the customer", but the other parts of the tub specifically say they apply to "the original owner."

Perhaps- and this would just be my guess- the shell warranty can be transferred, but the mechanicals are warranted for the original owner only. In that sense, they can claim that the warranty is transferable. That sounds just "lawyerese" enough to make sense.

I've heard the "7.5 years = lifetime" warranty thing before- I have no idea whether it's true or not, but it's not applicable in this case. No part of the Sundance warranty has a "lifetime", all parts of the warranty are for a specific number of years.

This is not to knock Arctic at all - it just sounds like a lot of the "features" you mentioned might be marketing tools that the Arctic salespeople pointed out to you, and not necessarily useful ways to compare these two spas.

IMHO, I'd wet test, and buy the one that feels the best to you. There's no reason to compare warranties if you end up buying a tub you don't like very much. After that, though, both Arctic and Sundance are reputable brands - all things being equal I'd buy the one that's brand new and comes with a warranty that covers the whole tub.

I will knock them, any spa company that puts a lifetime warranty on the structure is not worth the paper it is written on. They fiberglass their shells, the fiberglass is the structure not the shell, you can see they only cover the shell for five years. It is misleading, as most people will only remember the the lifetime part. 10 years down the road if your shell is cracked and you call Arctic, they will ask you "is it leaking through the fiberglass" and when you say no. They will so sorry that is not part of the lifetime warranty.

I would not buy or recommend and Arctic for that one reasons, makes me think what else are they BSing on.