Outdoor Clock?

[drewstar]

Lets see if I can work on a new approach here  



So, you put 15kw hours of electricity into each spa. Would you agree that the spa that loses the LEAST amount of heat (energy) through the cabinet (to the atmosphere) is the most efficient?

Yes I would.

[Reese]

I'm not. You've done nothing to explain your position, or reply to my questions, but you'll walk away saying your happy to stil say I'm wrong?

Half-wrong

I'm sorry that you feel that I haven't explained my position or responded to your questions.  I honestly tried to do so.  When I go back and read my responses, they are pretty clear to me.  I objected to your absolute statements regarding circ pumps and that TP tubs run their pumps to generate heat for the cabinet, and explained why I disagreed.  I don't think I owe you any more than that, nor do I expect more from you.  If you want to continue to try to convince me that my understanding of tub insulation is incomplete, I'll stay awake as long as I can.

[NittanyLion]

Oh, my fault, must have clicked the wrong thread, I thought we were talking about CLOCKS, must have been in the dead horse section with the eternal FF vs TP issue.

Who cares, we all know about FF and TP and have our own opinions, why try to argue with each other.

Now, about clocks, anyone else have any good ideas?

[East_TX_Spa]

T.P. Cooter sez:

Everbody dat ever et a dogfood and onion samwich knows dat de Thermal Pains insoolation is da bestest way to insoolate de spas!  Air is de bestest insoolater in da wurld, bar none!  A whole helluva lots better den puttin' in hi-density, closed cell foam insoolation like dem stoopid peoples that make industrial freezers do!

Fool foam is deviltry, pure and simple.

[loosenupspas]

Nothing like weighing into a conversation thread that is hours old, but hey why not?  I have an indoor outdoor digital thermometer attached to a showroom tp spa, it shows the inside cabinet temperature.  When running, ie in filter or therapy mode, the internal cabinet temp is 108 to 112 or more.  this heat is radiated back into the water via the exposed plumbing and manifold system but not really through the shell, as it is insulated and not absorbing heat.  When the spa is dormat, ie sitting covered without pump(s) on, it stays about 98 degrees.  My showroom spas all stay at the set temp during the day, most of the time i leave them in the economy mode causing heaters to only come on in a filter mode.  heat rises, tp is a great insulating system particularly here in florida.  most heat vanishes when the spa covers are open and you are soaking pumps running full blast and this is when tp is at its most efficient, with the cabinet temp at 112 degrees radiating upward into the plumbing-it is basic thermal-dynamics. if you have a blower on with tp, you are drawing in air from the heated cabinet, elimating the decreasing of temperture experienced by a blower drawing from the outside. that is the key advantage to tp, using its own heat when you are soaking, thus the heater stay off.   there are advantages to either system i suppose.  but one that is undeniable regarding tp is in the area of leaks, no insulation to dig out to find its orgin.  this is what draws people to tp v. ff, experienced spa owners who have had leaks in ff spa know what a mess they can be and see how easy the tp would be to repair a leak. in a quality spa, the opearting cost differences are nominal probably, mine run about .50 cent per day and far as ff costs, i don't really know.  

[txwillie]

I have never really considered FF vs TP, except in my very preliminary research on tubs about 3 years ago. I read enough about both methods and enough blather on this and other sites on the subject to know that if executed properly either works well. My 2c in the matter is this, if the motor heat was key to keeping the heat in, rather than the insulation on the cabinet, it would cost alot more to run a TP spa. My admittedly novice understanding is that both designs are nearly equal regarding overall efficiency. If all that motor heat was lost through "thin cabinet insulation", the heat loss (Kw loss) would be a huge factor and would result in higher electric useage. From what I have read, that is just not the case. Kw does not know if it is powering a pump motor or a heater. Kw does work, and in the process it creates heat. That's it.  I live in Texas. It is hot here. FF makes sense to me. If I lived in a cold climate, my preference might be different

txwillie

[NittanyLion]

Gahhh, it just doesn't stop, CLOCKS people, lets stay focused!  

I think TP and FF are both inferior to my preferred method of cramming my tub full of nymphomaniacal cheerleaders, each functions like a 98.6 degree submersible heater, much more fun, pleasing, efficient, and lower electrical cost than FF or TP.  Not that I ever get to employ that system, I'm going over to the forum with the Pics O' the day.

[drewstar]

Reese, Anne

Nature attempts to balance everything out.  It abhores a vacumm, and heat is drawn to cool.  You can fill a bowl of hot water and eventually it will cool.  Insulating it  slows down this heat transfer.  Full foam does it via dense foam and the tiny trapped air pockets in the foam.  It works like conventianal insulation (Foam cup, house insulation, etc).

A tp tub slows the transfer down by maitianing a warm air barrier. If the air in the barrier that is next to the shell is warm, it will draw less heat away from the water.  Right? Do you understand/agree? The colder the air, the more it will draw from the water.

How does TP create a warm barrier? By drawing heat off the pumps. Without the heat from the pumps, the warm air barrier would be drawing heat away from the water, and evnetually out to the cold.  

 If a TP tub didn't drawn off the pumps, it wouldn't work as well (and this is where you might be trying to get me).  When I say "as well" I mean it would be a significant difference for the cold weather winter tub owner.  Significant enough that Artic couldn't complete with Watkins.  The $30 a day to heat mantra of the better insualted tubs would  not apply to it.

[loosenupspas]

sorrrrrrry clocks yes......pinch a penny has nice poolside clocks, or any pool store.  i wear one on my wrist, luminox navy seal.  very easy to read in the steamy hot tub at night.....thought i was there to get away from nagging clocks, time and what do i do now, what do i do now......good night moon...good night spoon and the cow that jumped over the moon...don't you just love that book.......

[txwillie]

U x A x delta T. Where the insulation is located makes no difference.

txwillie

[East_TX_Spa]

Fuller "Foam" Festus retorts:

Foams, fibrous materials or evacuated spaces (vacuum fer da unedumacated) are used to reduce convective heat transfer by stopping or retarding the movement of fluids (liquids or gases) around the insulated object.

[txwillie]

Foams, fibrous materials or evacuated spaces (vacuum fer da unedumacated) are used to reduce convective heat transfer by stopping or retarding the movement of fluids (liquids or gases) around the insulated object.

That's really not quite correct. It is the air trapped in/by the insulation (urethane foam, fiberglass, whatever) that provides the insulating effect. That's how double pane glass insulates (except that it is usually N2 between the panes) Vacuum is entirely different in that there just arent any molecules to transfer heat in a vacuum.

txwillie

[loosenupspas]

vacuum is the absence of oxygen.....ie outer space or inside an incandescent light bulb.........not the interior space in a hot tub.  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

[East_TX_Spa]

That's how double pane glass insulates (except that it is usually N2 between the panes)

Fuller "Foam" Festus quips:

Yessir, but if'n you take some high density, closed cell foam insulation and spray it betwixt them layers of glass, it'd be a heap more energy efficient.....'ceptin' for the fact that it tain't a winder no more....it'd be a door.