entrapment of children

[Chas]

I know you were just kidding, but the truth is: NOT.

Take out the filters (from a HotSpring tub) and you still have very safe standpipes in place. And, they are sticking out of the bottom of a deep filter compartment. So if the next question is 'what if the standpipes get taken out,' then the answer is:

"Nothing."

You would have to have a neck at least two feet long to fit you head down there, and a rather slender head as well.



Oh - and by the time you have removed that much safety equipment...

 8-)

[Tman122]

Yea but it could happen Chas, if you wernt watching your kids for a couple hours whiles they played in the hot tub!!

I am a tell it like it is kinda guy and I could care less if I offend someone but here goes. If your an adult and stupid enough to get killed by entrapment on the suction of any portable spa it was mother natures way of eliminating stupid from this world, you don't deserve to be here. If you kids get trapped on the suction of a portable hot tub you deserve the pain and anquise associated with it. To bad your stupidity had to cost the life of an innocent child.

[aronsam]

I find the responses fascinating.  

I raise a concern after reading about the seven year old grand daughter of Secretary of State Jim Baker dying while in a portable hot tub while along side an adult who could not free her.  

The responses are insulting rather than substantive.   That's fine, I'll discuss the issue with the different dealers around me.

To those who don't take offense to my question, maybe you can read the consumer product safety commission report and hopefully the problem has been fixed.  

I have eight children and think I am figuring out how to watch them.

[Repeat_Offender]

Moving large quantities of water through a relatively small opening WILL create a sometimes large negative pressure. It matters not what brand it is so let's lose all the Hot Springs shills. Increasing the surface area for water inlet, whether it's accomplished by multiple low suction grilles or an oversized filter inlet opening accomplishes the same objective. This does NOT make Hot Spring spas any safer than ANY other brand in this regard.

[wmccall]

I don't really have much to add. Someone has already asked if you are really Jim. Great question. If you aren't then you accidently sounded like him, and no offense is meant.)

His IP goes back to NYC.

[Vinny]

I find the responses fascinating.  

I raise a concern after reading about the seven year old grand daughter of Secretary of State Jim Baker dying while in a portable hot tub while along side an adult who could not free her.  

The responses are insulting rather than substantive.   That's fine, I'll discuss the issue with the different dealers around me.

To those who don't take offense to my question, maybe you can read the consumer product safety commission report and hopefully the problem has been fixed.  

I have eight children and think I am figuring out how to watch them.

I don't know if you'll be back to read this aronsam but quite honestly you came onto a hot tub message board and asked a question and it was answered in the first 3 or 4 responses. I considered it a valid question originally. Then you came back with some "vac alert" articles because of your "concern" - it looks fishy to me.

I glanced over the original article of the entrapment and I too did not see if it was a portable spa - a portable spa is a self contained spa, not a spa designed along side a pool.  As all of us said, portable spas are not dangerous - they do have safety devices attached. Maybe not a "vac alert" but my 2" suction inlet has a 4" wide x 2" deep screen on it - no way for entrapment unless a person was so large that he/she can totally cover an area that big. Can that cover break - possibly but it is my responsibility to keep the tub safe.

If you truely are a concerned parent - salespeople are not the most reliable sources of information. If you are dismayed by the answers you received ... you've come to a site where people own tubs, we all believe that tubs are safe.

BTW, Children and hot tubs may not mix ... the extreme temp of a tub could have harmful effects on children. If you do decide to get one make sure you ask a Peditrician before haveing those 8 kids in there.

[Chas]

Yea but it could happen Chas, if you wernt watching your kids for a couple hours whiles they played in the hot tub!!

How?

Keep in mind that HS still has TWO standpipes per pump, so even if the filters are removed, then the standpipes, and then the fact that the openings are now under two feet of water at the bottom of a very protected space - they still have the safety of being doubled up so if one is blocked somehow the pump can draw from the other one.

I know you are trying to tell it like it is, but IMO this is a very safe system. To me, it is the safest one on the market.

And to the original poster - please take a second or two to do a cut and paste for us poor dumb 'shills' so we can see what part of any of those articles you linked to indicate that any of the incidents involved a self-contained hot tub? Please.

You are shopping and are concerned about safety. And of course, to you that seems totally reasonable. I agree. What seems to have escaped your thinking is that before I put everything I own on the line by way of a lawsuit from one or more of my customers - let alone the personal aguish of being part of a personal tragedy on the part of one of my customers - I have done the homework and made the same choice. I just have the lives of hundreds of my customer's kids riding on it, and the financial future of my own family as well. Sort of puts the onus on me to be sure the product I take to market is the very safest it can be.

And to the poster who mentioned that having the water go through one point - the filter weir - I would ask you to try one. Go to a HS dealer, take your finger and hold the weir up in it's track while the pump or pumps is/are running. It takes a few seconds for the water level in the filter area to drop and the suction is automatically broken.

This is a safe system.

 8-)

[Vinny]

How?

Keep in mind that HS still has TWO standpipes per pump, so even if the filters are removed, then the standpipes, and then the fact that the openings are now under two feet of water at the bottom of a very protected space - they still have the safety of being doubled up so if one is blocked somehow the pump can draw from the other one.

I know you are trying to tell it like it is, but IMO this is a very safe system. To me, it is the safest one on the market.

And to the original poster - please take a second or two to do a cut and paste for us poor dumb 'shills' so we can see what part of any of those articles you linked to indicate that any of the incidents involved a self-contained hot tub? Please.

You are shopping and are concerned about safety. And of course, to you that seems totally reasonable. I agree. What seems to have escaped your thinking is that before I put everything I own on the line by way of a lawsuit from one or more of my customers - let alone the personal aguish of being part of a personal tragedy on the part of one of my customers - I have done the homework and made the same choice. I just have the lives of hundreds of my customer's kids riding on it, and the financial future of my own family as well. Sort of puts the onus on me to be sure the product I take to market is the very safest it can be.

And to the poster who mentioned that having the water go through one point - the filter weir - I would ask you to try one. Go to a HS dealer, take your finger and hold the weir up in it's track while the pump or pumps is/are running. It takes a few seconds for the water level in the filter area to drop and the suction is automatically broken.

This is a safe system.

 8-)

Ya know Chas, I like you but this dribble is nonsence. I can't speak of all manufacturer's tubs but the ones that I've seen have all been safe. HS has nothing over any other tub EXCEPT PRICE!!!

So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.

You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.

I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?

[Chas]

It dawned on me that I might have given a better answer to this question. After rereading your first post -

Many swimming pools have been built before the safety regs were changed. Newer pools with attached spas have multiple drain filtting. I owned a pool a long time ago which only had an attached spa. That spa had one drain fitting in the bottom, and a large pump. It could really pull at that drain fitting when the valves were set to run the spa side of things. The drain cover was flat. Not real safe.

But this forum is about self-contained hot tubs - and those will almost universally have multiple suction points. Even if they are not ETL or UL listed, they will usually STILL have more than one suction point becuase they will have a filter and a bottom suction fitting.

That design is much safer than the one which has caused tragedies in the pools and spas you read about in the news. There is a problem though;

most news folks don't know the difference. They see a report about a 'hot tub' or a 'spa' incident and they don't take the time to find out and report on the very important part of the information, which is:
was it a spa attached to a swimming pool, or was it a newer, better-designed tub?

What I am saying is that your concern is justified, and to answer your question: Yes. The industry has addressed this issue long ago. The tubs I sell have been UL and/or ETL listed for a couple of decades. Part of that listing involves not having safety issues involving suction entrapment. So the tubs people are discussing here have taken care of the issue you are asking about. I think most of the posters in this thread assume you know or knew that, but you very well may have not been aware of it. Sorry if we came across harsh -

I hope this helps.

 8-)

[Repeat_Offender]

Which goes back to my original post, different manufacturers accomplish this in different ways, and all safely.

[Chas]

So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.

You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.

I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?

Don't forget - Tiger River has suctions too. And no, I am not saying tubs with properly designed suction fittings are 'death traps.' Thanks for asking.

I stand by my statement: The way HS arranges the suction system is the safest way to do it. I didn't say it was the ONLY safe way to do it. I said it was safer. No suctions in the bather area compared to suctions in the bather area. That is hard to argue IMO.

The fact that Tiger River, Solana, Hot Spot and Caldera all have suction fittings in the bather area makes the point that you can have those suctions in a safe manner. Every ETL or UL listed tub has had to create a safe way to have these suction fittings. No matter what brand you are looking at, if it is ETL or UL listed you don't really have to worry about suction entrapment. In fact I will say again that even non-ETL listed tubs most likely have a filter on one side of a T fitting and a suction on the other. That works to keep them safe.

The whole thread started because a person read about accidents in swimming pools and the spas attached to them. Those are different animals than what we are discussing here.

 8-)

[Zep]

[size=18]Cal Spas[/size]

EXCLUSIVE True Blue Safety Suction System™



Prevents drowning risks and dry-run motor damage by automatically shutting
off the pump when anything – clothing, hair, toys, towels, etc. – blocks water
intake to your spa’s motor.


Anti-Vortex Drains



Automatically shuts down the pump in the event of any
water flow restriction.

[Chas]

Just my opinion, but I would rather have a system with no moving parts. I'm sure this is a good way to go, but it has parts that must be in good working order to do it's job. To me, they would be better off just putting the correct size suction fittings, in the correct places in the tub, and having the correct number of them.

Now, if they do all that AND add this system, bravo! One more step in making an already safe product even safer.

 8-)

[autoplay]

Ya know Chas, I like you but this dribble is nonsence. I can't speak of all manufacturer's tubs but the ones that I've seen have all been safe. HS has nothing over any other tub EXCEPT PRICE!!!

So based on what you are saying HS is the safest and Caldera, the other tub line you sell, is a death trap - I think selling both you should write Caldera a letter and tell them they really should get on the ball and copy their sister tub.

You should STOP selling Caldera since HS is the safest on the market ... you wouldn't want to get sued based on the fact that you are knowingly selling a death trap! You've just admitted to the fact that the HS system is the safest on the market barring none.

I think I need to visit California and buy me a Caldera ... any California Lawyers here?

I've only been entrapped once on my Caldera spa,but as I hold the State record in FL for holding my breath,I was able to pry myself free after 3 minutes

I concur with TMAN and his thoughts/opinions.....it would take a person with a low IQ and/or drug induced,to become entrapped on a suction fitting in a PORTABLE spa,and potentially cause personal injury/death.

[Chas]

Same for pools. I have retrofitted swimming pools with two drains in a commercial application. We were renovating and replastering the pool and seperate spa. A LOT of work. We jack-hammered the bottom and skimmers, added plumbing to a second drain in both the pool and the spa, installed commercial skimmers with an open balance port, replastered, fitted new anti-vortex drain covers, AND replumbed the equipment pad to remove valves which could override the dual suctions by putting all the suction on either the skimmers or main drains.

No moving parts (other than the float valves in the bottom of the skimmers) and you couldn't set anything or turn anything on or off which would cause the new safe design to be ineffective.

Adding a vac alert or something like it would have been great, but not needed. Again, keep in mind that we are now talking about a swimming pool, not a self-contained tub.

 8-)