Ph and Ta

[Vinny]

I am the only person who use's the tub and i take a bath before i take a soak 99% of the time. I use the tub daily for about 45 min to 1 hour. (until 2 weeks ago

I dont think i have neglected the tub i have a 360 gallon tub and i add 3/4 tsp of dichlor after each use and i shock weekly with 5 1/4 tsp and balance the PH and TA. My water is clear like it was new and it has no odors.

Do you really think i need to hit it with a 50 ppm of chlorine?

After each soak i put on lotion to keep my skin from drying out.

I have been adding 8 ounches of PH down, my TA will goto 100 and my Ph will goto 7.2 then the next day i check it and my TA will be back to 120 and my PH will be 8.0 or higher i have been doing this for 4 days and every day the same thing happens.

What is an acceptable level of CYA?

CapMorgan

I hate to tell you - your using too little chlorine!

I can get by with 1 teaspoon with a 400 gallon tub and it gives me 1.5 PPM ... but that's at a PH of 7.2. I ran my tub for months at that but then my tub 's PH went high (7. and the water went bad. I now use 2 teaspoons for a 3 PPM chlorine level and I know at a PH of 7.8 I have enough chlorine.

I personally would keep at adding PH down as eventually yo will win that battle, then shock the tub with 10 PPM chlorine.

Something that has been mentioned here in other posts is that water gets harder to manage as the TDS gets high - this might be the case with you. In a spa there is no acceptable range of CYA ... you start at 0 and go to ? depending on how much chlorine you use, how often you use it and how long you keep the water.

As I said, dump half the water and see how it goes but if you do dump I would still put in 10 PPM chlorine. If there is a biofilm growing then the 50 PPM will be needed, hopefully that hasn't happened. How to determine there is a biofilm ... I have no clue but I would think that if the PH is correct, you shock the tub and still get the itches - shock with 50 PPM and see a Dr.

[Reese]

I am the only person who use's the tub and i take a bath before i take a soak 99% of the time. I use the tub daily for about 45 min to 1 hour. I dont think i have neglected the tub i have a 360 gallon tub and i add 3/4 tsp of dichlor after each use and i shock weekly with 5 1/4 tsp and balance the PH and TA. My water is clear like it was new and it has no odors.

If you are bathing, then using the tub for 45-60 minutes, your problems could just be the oils stripping out of your skin from too much time in the water.  Lotion can only do so much to counteract the drying effects of hot water.  Regardless, I think you need to finish balancing your water, and take a look at your sanitizing program.

First of all, 3/4 tsp is a 1.5 ppm dose in your tub, which IMO is on the light side.  Multiply that by the fact that less than 25% of the chlorine in the tub is in the form of hypochlorous acid (the killing form) at a pH over 8, and you have an effective 0.4 ppm killing chlorine.  That may be enough given the situation you describe, but I wouldn't count on it.  IMO, that is one of the weaknesses of the way people interpret the "Vermonter" system.  If the pH isn't low enough to have the majority of the chlorine in acid form, the recommended doses need to be adjusted up.

Before super-sanitizing, you can check the tub by measuring chlorine levels at 2 hrs after you shock with dichlor, followed by an 8-12 hour check, and a 24 hour reading.  If most of the chlorine is present after 2 hrs, half of it at 8-12 and something still there the next day, you don't need to super-sanitize, but I still would increase the daily dose.  IMO 1.5 tsp would be a safer dose once you have the pH down to 7.5, and I'd be using a tablespoon/day until then.

Now one more time on the pH.  As I said before, any readings you take after applying the acid are meaningless, so don't bother.  Wait at least 4 hours, better yet the next day, before testing.  (Neo, that means you, too . The carbonate you added after you saw the orange on your test strip countered anything you gained with the acid) There are only a few people on these boards who have to deal with off-the-charts high pH, so the common advice to balance TA first doesn't apply to us, nor do the acid demand charts published on Doc's website or in the Taylor book.  If your water comes from a limestone aquifer, it simply takes a bunch of acid to get the job done.  If you have MPS, use it as a shock until you get the pH down.  Its low pH will help out in the process.  Ignore TA until you get the pH to stay in the range you want.

[Reese]

I hate to tell you - your using too little chlorine!...

Great minds think alike, and small ones seldom differ!  I started my post around the same time you did, but left to watch the news.  When I finished and hit "post", I saw you had already covered a lot of the same ground.  I could have saved some keystrokes!

I went over to Poolsearch and looked at some of the advice that is being given out there.  I can understand why Tony chose to address his concerns here rather than jump into CapMorgan's thread over there.  It reminded me of the Bizarro Superman comics of my youth.  It is the first time I've seen the Vermonter approach described as "terrible, terrible".  I don't know how much validity their theories have, but the two main proponents of liquid bleach certainly talk a good chemistry game (my head hurts just from following the discussion).  The method described for balancing pH and TA had me envisioning standing over the tub like it is a witch's cauldron, adding chemicals, while turning aeration on and off, until presto, your water is balanced perfectly! :-?

Their positions on dichlor, CYA, and liquid bleach are certainly different than what you see in the Taylor materials, the guides on Doc's site, or any of the other info I have come across.  I find it interesting that in their view, sodium hypochlorite is the gold standard and dichlor is to be used sparingly.  They repeat the same chemistry primer in several posts/threads, blaming what are normally considered minimal CYA levels for reduced sanitizer efficiency.  The things that concerned me based on sampling a few threads, is a seeming belief that simply switching to liquid bleach is the cure to most  hot-tub problems (oversimplification on my part), although there was little concern for its affects on pH and TDS -- and that a pseudomonas infection is likely to occur if you don't follow thier approach.  They do have some followers, but whenever I see testimonials to how simple something can be if you just follow a non-conventional approach, I wonder if they are "on to something, or on something".  8-)

[Chad]

Reese, I got your PM. Thanks for the advice. My PM hasn't been working the last couple of days, so I had to post my reply here.

[CapMorgan]

When i shock my water i use  5 1/4 tsp which is 7 times my daily dose per Vermonter method and 24 later my chlorine level is still 10 ppm or higher i cant tell because my kit only goes to 10 ppm.

I will follow all of your advice, today i will dump half of my water, then i will get my PH in line at 7.5.

I will adjust my daily dosing to 1.5 tsp. Do i have to now adjust my shock level to 7 times that now, or leave it at 5 1/4 tsp since i can get a 10 ppm 24 hours later ?

CapMorgan

[Chad]

When i shock my water i use  5 1/4 tsp which is 7 times my daily dose per Vermonter method and 24 later my chlorine level is still 10 ppm or higher i cant tell because my kit only goes to 10 ppm.

I will follow all of your advice, today i will dump half of my water, then i will get my PH in line at 7.5.

I will adjust my daily dosing to 1.5 tsp. Do i have to now adjust my shock level to 7 times that now, or leave it at 5 1/4 tsp since i can get a 10 ppm 24 hours later ?

CapMorgan

The 7 x your daily dose shock method is the only thing I don't do that Vermonter suggests. The only reason being, if I did I wouldn't be able to soak for a week due to the sky high FC. My daily dose is about 1 tsp for my 336 gallon tub and that will give me atleast a 3ppm 20 minutes after dosing.(when my water was new, I'd get a 5ppm). The most dichlor that I have added to my tub at one time(with a starting ppm of 0) was 4 tsp. That dose brought my FC to above 10(didn't know exactly b/c kit doesn't go that high) for two days. If I were to add 7 tsp I think I would be doing the decontamination process suggested in my owners manual, and I just don't think that would be neccessary every time I shock.

[Tatooed_Lady]

Somewhere back in the archives is advice on how to find out what the level of dichlor is, even if it's "off the charts" high.
I believe it was by taking an equal amount of tub water and tap water, then using your kit or strip to test. Whatever the reading (say, 8ppm), double it to get a reasonable idea on how much you're dealing with. If you're STILL off the charts *gasp*, measure out more tap water, and multiply based on how much you've got....
Crude, but hopefully effective...

[Chad]

When i shock my water i use  5 1/4 tsp which is 7 times my daily dose per Vermonter method and 24 later my chlorine level is still 10 ppm or higher i cant tell because my kit only goes to 10 ppm.

First let me say that I am by far no expert in this area. When shocking with dichlor you only need to add enough to get a FC reading of 10 x your CC. e.i.- if your CC is .5 you would only need a dose that would bring the FC to 5 in order to rid all the chloramines.
Do you test for CC ?

[Vinny]

What Reese said is true about the oils on your skin.

If your shocking with 10 PPM snd it stays then your chemically cleaning the tub with chlorine. There is a formula of when to change out the water - I think it's 2/3 the gallons of water divided by the # of days you've used the tub.

To test for high chlorine, use a non-chlorinated water and use a 50/50 mix and multiply the chlorine reading by2 ... if that's too high still use 2 parts non-chlorinated water to 1 part tub water and multiply by 3.

[Chad]

To test for high chlorine, use a non-chlorinated water and use a 50/50 mix and multiply the chlorine reading by2 ... if that's too high still use 2 parts non-chlorinated water to 1 part tub water and multiply by 3.

Thanks for that Vinny.   You're the best. 8-)

[Reese]

I will follow all of your advice, today i will dump half of my water, then i will get my PH in line at 7.5.
I will adjust my daily dosing to 1.5 tsp. Do i have to now adjust my shock level to 7 times that now, or leave it at 5 1/4 tsp since i can get a 10 ppm 24 hours later ?

If your chlorine shocks persists for 24 hours, I doubt you have an infection in your tub, so the advice you got on the other forum about "hot tub itch" seems unfounded.  I'm more concerned about your pH and the amount of time you are in water.  I personally don't think you need to dump half your water yet, but if you are concerned about CYA, (I've asked the people over on Poolsearch for more info on that.) it won't hurt anything -- it will just require more acid to bring down the pH of the fresh water.

As far as your shock dose, the Vermonter rec of 7X your daily dose is only an approximation for those who don't measure CC.  As WHY NOT said, you need to get to 10X CC, otherwise you are not accomplishing "breakpoint" which is necessary to reduce chloramines.  An inadequate chlorine shock actually makes the problem worse!  MPS is good alternative for you since it will help lower pH and CC measurement is not necessary, otherwise, stick with the 7X approximation.

[Reese]

Reese, I got your PM. Thanks for the advice. My PM hasn't been working the last couple of days, so I had to post my reply here.

You are welcome.  Now my PM is acting up.  I couldn't respond to you there.  BTW, I made a post on your chlorine question.   Have a good day!:)

[neocacher]

After testing this morning, it appears my pH is in the 7.6 range.  Alk in in the 50-70 range.  I think I will give it a day to see what happens?

Then what , can I leave alk at that level if pH stays fairly stable?

Neo

[Reese]

After testing this morning, it appears my pH is in the 7.6 range.  Alk in in the 50-70 range.  I think I will give it a day to see what happens?Then what , can I leave alk at that level if pH stays fairly stable?

Yes.  If pH drifts down below 7.1, add sodium bicarb (baking soda) to raise it, that will bring up TA at the same time.

[Vinny]

Great minds think alike, and small ones seldom differ!  I started my post around the same time you did, but left to watch the news.  When I finished and hit "post", I saw you had already covered a lot of the same ground.  I could have saved some keystrokes!

I went over to Poolsearch and looked at some of the advice that is being given out there.  I can understand why Tony chose to address his concerns here rather than jump into CapMorgan's thread over there.  It reminded me of the Bizarro Superman comics of my youth.  It is the first time I've seen the Vermonter approach described as "terrible, terrible".  I don't know how much validity their theories have, but the two main proponents of liquid bleach certainly talk a good chemistry game (my head hurts just from following the discussion).  The method described for balancing pH and TA had me envisioning standing over the tub like it is a witch's cauldron, adding chemicals, while turning aeration on and off, until presto, your water is balanced perfectly! :-?

Their positions on dichlor, CYA, and liquid bleach are certainly different than what you see in the Taylor materials, the guides on Doc's site, or any of the other info I have come across.  I find it interesting that in their view, sodium hypochlorite is the gold standard and dichlor is to be used sparingly.  They repeat the same chemistry primer in several posts/threads, blaming what are normally considered minimal CYA levels for reduced sanitizer efficiency.  The things that concerned me based on sampling a few threads, is a seeming belief that simply switching to liquid bleach is the cure to most  hot-tub problems (oversimplification on my part), although there was little concern for its affects on pH and TDS -- and that a pseudomonas infection is likely to occur if you don't follow thier approach.  They do have some followers, but whenever I see testimonials to how simple something can be if you just follow a non-conventional approach, I wonder if they are "on to something, or on something".  8-)

Reese,

Bleach works well in a pool and personally I balance out my water's parameters by using bleach, trichlor and cal hypo.

Sometimes free advice is truely worth nothing but honestly I have gotten bad advice from pool stores. CYA over 100 in my pool - 'that's great what are you worried about' - yeah right.

I am a firm believer of knowing what you need to do and not relying on some person telling me what to do. As newbies we can be swayed all over the place. Even on these forums I watched what was being said and believe some and discredit others.

When I was shopping for the tub I went into a D1 dealer and  he was hawking the vision system (basically a N2 cartridge on steroids) without dichlor. When I mentioned that tubs need dichlor and I was planning on using dichlor after soaking (Vermonter's method), he told me how stupid that was because you need to use dichlor before you soak. Meanwhile he wanted $125 for the vision cartridge so I didn't need dichlor - but he told me I should use dichlor before soaking -  

That's why I  come and participate on this and Doc's forum ... hopefully my free advice over rides someone else's free advice and of course mine IS correct! 8-)