Silver Ion and PH

[Spiderman]

I changed the water last week and decided not to install a new Silver Ion Cartridge, as an experiment with water chemisty.  In a little over a week I've noticed that the PH is holding pretty steady, compared to when I had the silver ion installed, I constantly had to add PH Up every week because the PH would drop.  Does anyone know if having the silver ion cartridge installed causes PH to drop?  

[anne]

I have no idea what is SUPPOSED to happen, but I have had the opposite findings. Having tried 3 months with, then three months without, and now with again, my pH and TA have been easier to handle when the silver ion cartridge is there. I'm not necessarily giving the N2 direct credit, but it is interesting. I dont believe that the silver ions contribute enough ionic activity to actually influence pH, but I dont know quite why I think that.

My chemist friend is getting a call.......

[tileman]

Spiderman, everything I've ever read about mineral cartridges states that balancing water is easier when used and shouldn't affect levels at all. However most of the directions that come with these cartridges advises one to add a small amount of mps presoak to maximize it's efficientcy. This would definetly cause a gradual drop in ph if you do this with unbuffered mps. They also stated that you can sub out mps all together with dichlor to prevent this from happening. I'm not sure what chems you use but if you're having this problem and your using mps, you might want to rid it from your routine altogether.

[Spiderman]

I don't use MPS anymore since it wrecked my first batch of water back in August, so I only use dichlor (fresh water from Hot Spring).  I've never had a problem with my water since switching to dichlor only.  I also wonder about the silver ion's overall benefit since the "active" ingredient is a whopping 1% of silver, with 99% inactive.  I have a hard time believing the 1% really does much.

[anne]

I don't use MPS anymore since it wrecked my first batch of water back in August, so I only use dichlor (fresh water from Hot Spring).  I've never had a problem with my water since switching to dichlor only.  I also wonder about the silver ion's overall benefit since the "active" ingredient is a whopping 1% of silver, with 99% inactive.  I have a hard time believing the 1% really does much.

Agreed, there are not a lot of silver ions in your tub. If there were, that mineral cartridge would be very pricey. But I would not assume that 1% is useless. We try to achieve 3-5ppm chlorine to keep out tubs, clean, right? That is only 0.0003 to 0.0005 percent. I know I'm comparing sanitizer in your water to silver in the cartridge, which is not directly relevant, but still it demonstrates that a very small amount of a potent thing can be powerful.

[tileman]

I don't use MPS anymore since it wrecked my first batch of water back in August, so I only use dichlor (fresh water from Hot Spring).  I've never had a problem with my water since switching to dichlor only.  I also wonder about the silver ion's overall benefit since the "active" ingredient is a whopping 1% of silver, with 99% inactive.  I have a hard time believing the 1% really does much.

I too was skeptical about how much affect they would have. So I figured I'd try a fill w/o it and see what happens. So far so good. I look at it like one more thing you have to buy and add to your water. We all know less is better. So if I can get by w/o it, I'll pass.

[Richs100]

I am also having some doubts about the silver ion cartridges (Nature2).  I posted a question in the Water Quality section of this board due to conflicting advice I had recieved from two different people at my dealer.  

The upshot of this seems to be that there is an inherent conflict between using siver ion cartridges on the one hand, and using MetalGone or Stain & Scale for metal control in your tub.  It seems that the metal control chemicals negate whatever beneficial effects the silver could have on your tub.  So if you use these products together, your just wasting your money on the silver ion cartridges.  Based on what Dr. Spa and Waterbear say in my other post, it makes perfect sense that, chemically, this would happen.

Why don't the manufacturers of these systems warn us about this?

CORRECTION: I posted about this issue in the Water Quality section of the Pool and Spa Forum.

[hottub.pool_boy]

The silver ion has no affect on pH.

We tell our spa owners that it works great as an additional measure of protection.

It's best used in conjunction with a prefilter that adds the initial dose of silver. By starting with a bank of silver, you're not relying on circulation/ or filtration to build up the residual. In addition, the use of water clarifier can coat the cartridge limiting its ability to errode. Shocking with chlorine does strip the water clarifier from the cartridge.

I have a Solana TX. I rely on the silver cartidge to keep my water clear, especially when it goes 3 or more days unused. My early version of the TX wasn't ozone ready. Geez, maybe it's time to upgrade. Hate to take a new one out of stock for myself.

[Vinny]

Why don't the manufacturers of these systems warn us about this?

First I have to address the above comment - it's all about how much $$$ an industry can take from it's patrons. It's in every industry.

Next, I am of the opinion that N2 or any of those things doesn't do very much - again it's my opinion and not fact. But the truth is that it's an opinion that it works when people say it does too, there is no fact there too. Tubs for years had no N2 and they were fine. I don't use N2 and my tub is fine. I used N2 for 3 months and I had the same results as without it. But 1 tub doesn't prove a thing.

[Richs100]

The silver ion has no affect on pH.

We tell our spa owners that it works great as an additional measure of protection.

It's best used in conjunction with a prefilter that adds the initial dose of silver. By starting with a bank of silver, you're not relying on circulation/ or filtration to build up the residual. In addition, the use of water clarifier can coat the cartridge limiting its ability to errode. Shocking with chlorine does strip the water clarifier from the cartridge.

I have a Solana TX. I rely on the silver cartidge to keep my water clear, especially when it goes 3 or more days unused. My early version of the TX wasn't ozone ready. Geez, maybe it's time to upgrade. Hate to take a new one out of stock for myself.

I apologize in advance if anyone wants to punch me for trying to hijack this thread, but since I see that hottub.pool_boy is a Hot Spring dealer, I would hope he could comment on the question of the Nature2 (HS Freshwater Ag+) cartridges and the use of MetalGon or Stain&Scale.  I've got a brand new Envoy and I am sure confused, so it's an issue for me.  I think it also goes to the heart of the proper way to use these rather expensive silver ion cartridges in many of our tubs.
Thanks, Rich

[hottub.pool_boy]

Richs100, I wil consult with the "BIG GUNS" tomorrow on your stain&scale question. Those GUNS being my in-house water guru and a Biolab chemist.
My first thought, is the stain&scale protects it.

[Richs100]

Thanks hottub.pool_boy.  I would appreciate their input.

[glastron]

so is the blue cartridge of the spa frog system silver ions and if so what other chems in that thing.I found it a lot less cash to open the yellow one and refill ur self.(which has been discussed numerous times).Really what I'm asking is that is there a product u can put in the blue cartridge instead of replacing it?

[kervis]

This info is great to know. "In addition, the use of water clarifier can coat the cartridge limiting its ability to errode. Shocking with chlorine does strip the water clarifier from the cartridge." I bought my N2 on-line and it came with no directons, so my directions have come from all of you.  

I refilled my spa, added Metal Gon, waited 3 days, then added the N2.  I LOVE it!  It does provide me with an extra measure of protection-I noticed it immediately.  

Last night a few of us went out to enjoy the spa, and it was slightly cloudy.  I tested first, and there was no chlorine.  In my first months of ownership, this would have meant I was brewing a stew.  I did the rest of the dichlor test--nothing!!  No hints of pink anywhere!   We all hopped in.  Post soak, I added dichlor and Bright & Clear.  15 minutes later, great clear water.  When the sun comes up, I'll check for a scum line and rinse my filters.

I attribute it to the voodo N2.   Really, I love it and will be buying it again in the spring.  HUGE water quality difference for me.  

I do have a question:  The 10-day weather forecast shows an odd 45 degree day coming up next week.  I am thinking I may just change the water even though it's only a month old.  I am thinking I can still use the same N2 stick, right?  I just follow the same steps to install it as I did before.  Will something happen to it if it dries out or should I keep it in a bucket of spa water?

Thanks!

[tony]

I am also having some doubts about the silver ion cartridges (Nature2).  I posted a question in the Water Quality section of this board due to conflicting advice I had recieved from two different people at my dealer.  

The upshot of this seems to be that there is an inherent conflict between using siver ion cartridges on the one hand, and using MetalGone or Stain & Scale for metal control in your tub.  It seems that the metal control chemicals negate whatever beneficial effects the silver could have on your tub.  So if you use these products together, your just wasting your money on the silver ion cartridges.  Based on what Dr. Spa and Waterbear say in my other post, it makes perfect sense that, chemically, this would happen.

Why don't the manufacturers of these systems warn us about this?

CORRECTION: I posted about this issue in the Water Quality section of the Pool and Spa Forum.

I don't know if I agree.  Both King Technology and LeisureTime instruct to use their mineral purifiers with Metal Gon or in the case of King, a metal sequestering agent.  Though it sounds logical that the silver ions would be rendered ineffective with the use of a metal sequestering agent, I don't know if this is actually the case.  Nature2 doesn't seem to address the issue in their instructions.