Two Questions Before We Buy...

[TucsonTub]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

1) Any general comments about either of my brand/model choices (Coleman 461 or Baja Spas PXS-1044)? We like the PXS-1044 because of it's design, energy efficiency and "sealed" filtration system. But if this "sealed" system is so good, why don't other manufacturers also use it?

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

[Vinny]

Coleman seems to make a good spa based on peoples comments here and I don't see much of Baja - that doesn't make it a bad spa though. As far as sealed, I guess it's pressurized and most spas don't do it that way any more it seems, the others that I know of is Emerals Spas and Hydropool. It's more like a pool's filter. The only comment that I've read is the pumps could get stuff stuck in them (hair and other debris).

Soft soak is an expensive alternative to chlorine and bromine. Some people love it, some don't. I had a friend who used it for about a year but switched to bromine. It seems to be fussy where it can get "bad" more easily than bromine or chlorine.

As far as using chlorine, some of us use the chlorine after soaking approach and feel we have a safe tub. The advantage of this is soaking without too much chlorine residue.

Apparently just to fore warn you some people's skin get really dried out with the spa's hot water. I've read some people moisturize after using a spa.

[gturn]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

Not familar with either model tubs. On the Soft-Soak, most people who try it end up switching to Clorine or Bromine.  Will your tub have Ozone, with Ozone you can get away with a lot lower level of chemicals.  Most people who are sensative to chemicals are sensative to, to many chemicals.  When you keep your chemical levels within guidelines most people don't have problems. Public Pools usually keep their Chemical levels higher than you need in a Hot Tub.

[hottubdan]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

Not familar with either model tubs. On the Soft-Soak, most people who try it end up switching to Clorine or Bromine.  Will your tub have Ozone, with Ozone you can get away with a lot lower level of chemicals.  Most people who are sensative to chemicals are sensative to, to many chemicals.  When you keep your chemical levels within guidelines most people don't have problems. Public Pools usually keep their Chemical levels higher than you need in a Hot Tub.

Where is the data that backs up the statement that most people switch to chlorine or bromine?  For sensative skin, there is no better technology.  People are sensative to halogens (chlorine and bromine), which are harsh chemicals, even at recommended levels.  It is not significantly higher than chlorine, bromine or Nature2.

[hottubdan]

Clarification.  It is not significantly more costly than chlorine or bromine or Nature2.

[Tman122]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

1) Any general comments about either of my brand/model choices (Coleman 461 or Baja Spas PXS-1044)? We like the PXS-1044 because of it's design, energy efficiency and "sealed" filtration system. But if this "sealed" system is so good, why don't other manufacturers also use it?

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

Sounds like you have taken the bait, hook line and sinker on one sales pitch and not the other. Both those tubs will filter about the same and cost about the same to operate. You won't notice much of a differance, if any on either of those two.

Try the soft soak system and see if you like it and report back to us. I have several customers who have tryed it and ended up switching to Chloring or Bromine because of water issues and cost.

[Vinny]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

Not familar with either model tubs. On the Soft-Soak, most people who try it end up switching to Clorine or Bromine.  Will your tub have Ozone, with Ozone you can get away with a lot lower level of chemicals.  Most people who are sensative to chemicals are sensative to, to many chemicals.  When you keep your chemical levels within guidelines most people don't have problems. Public Pools usually keep their Chemical levels higher than you need in a Hot Tub.

Where is the data that backs up the statement that most people switch to chlorine or bromine?  For sensative skin, there is no better technology.  People are sensative to halogens (chlorine and bromine), which are harsh chemicals, even at recommended levels.  It is not significantly higher than chlorine, bromine or Nature2.

I have a question ... How much does the Soft Soak program cost? I was introduced to Baqua for my AG pool and it was WAY more expensive than chlorine. I think a 3 month supply was $250 and chlorine was $50.

As far as the tub on a chlorine only program, ozone 8 hours a day and using some Sea Klear clarifier once in a while, it costs about $50.00 a year.

[hottubdan]

Factor in the cost of the ozonator.  Factor in the fact that with a program as you described you do not have continual sanitizer residual.

Done properly, chlorine is the cheapest sanitizer.  If cost is the only goal go with it.  

5# of chlorine costs $35.00.  Add your Sea Klear.  Are you claiming that is your entire annual program.  No testing.  No water balance.

[anne]

Factor in the cost of the ozonator.  Factor in the fact that with a program as you described you do not have continual sanitizer residual.

Done properly, chlorine is the cheapest sanitizer.  If cost is the only goal go with it.  

5# of chlorine costs $35.00.  Add your Sea Klear.  Are you claiming that is your entire annual program.  No testing.  No water balance.

Are you saying that biguanides require no water testing and balancing? Seems like that would be a cost acros the board, therefore not fair to list in one column and not the other. And as for the cost of an ozonator, a lot of tubs (HS, right?) come with ozone already installed, so there is no cost savings there, unless ozone is an "option" you can decline.

[gturn]

I'm a newbie with two questions to answer before my wife and I buy a spa.

2) Any comments about the "Soft-Soak" chemical treatment system from SpaGuard. It's touted as a "Bromine-free and Chlorine-free" spa care system. My wife has very dry skin and is sensitive to typical pool/spa chemicals. The "Soft-Soak" is offered through the Coleman dealer while the Baja Spas sales associate recommended a "low level" Bromine or Chlorine system.

Thanks...

Not familar with either model tubs. On the Soft-Soak, most people who try it end up switching to Clorine or Bromine.  Will your tub have Ozone, with Ozone you can get away with a lot lower level of chemicals.  Most people who are sensative to chemicals are sensative to, to many chemicals.  When you keep your chemical levels within guidelines most people don't have problems. Public Pools usually keep their Chemical levels higher than you need in a Hot Tub.

Where is the data that backs up the statement that most people switch to chlorine or bromine?  For sensative skin, there is no better technology.  People are sensative to halogens (chlorine and bromine), which are harsh chemicals, even at recommended levels.  It is not significantly higher than chlorine, bromine or Nature2.

I should clarify my statement that most people I have read about on the Forums that try Soft-Soak have changed to Clorine or Bromine after using it for a while.  Try it and let us know what your experience is.

[Vinny]

Factor in the cost of the ozonator.  Factor in the fact that with a program as you described you do not have continual sanitizer residual.

Done properly, chlorine is the cheapest sanitizer.  If cost is the only goal go with it.  

5# of chlorine costs $35.00.  Add your Sea Klear.  Are you claiming that is your entire annual program.  No testing.  No water balance.

I buy Dichlor and Sea Klear from Doc @ $29.99 & $9.95, respectively.  5 lbs lasts about 8 to 10 months and a quart using a squirk or 2 whenever I need it lasts (I'll give it about 6 months). A 9,000 hour ozonator running 8 hours a day is 1125 days or 3 years. At $120  to purchase, that's $40.00/year ... Most ozinators that I am looking at for purchase have a 20,000 hour life expectancy and cost around $100.

Water Balance - $0.85 for 2 lbs of Baking soda (went up in price!), I use about 6 lbs I think, so that's $5.10 and 15 lbs of hardness plus from Leslies for $26.99 and I use about 12 oz at a time. That would give me 20 water changes or 4 to 5 years worth ( if I use 4 1/2 years that comes to $7 a year).

I buy big Taylor Reagents again from Doc  R -001 & R-002 cost $6.95 each - that's $13.90, R-004 is $4.95 and that will last me all year - total $18.85. I do use a little amount of alkalinity and hardness reagents ... I guess add another $20.00 for that for a year or 2.

If I add it up: 40 D + 40 O3 + 20 SK = $100 ... Wow I thought is was $50 ... Thanks, now I know the real cost for sanitizing my tub. Add 5 BS + 7 H + 39 R = 51. So all total it's $151 to run. Any tub will need to adjust water as anne said so it's a even point ... actually test strips are way more expensive than reagents so reagents may have an edge there.

hottubdan, I've listed my cost, please list the soft soak cost. The only thing I have to go by is the Leslies site and Baqua. Baqua shock - 32 oz $10.99, Baqua waterline - 32 oz $16.99, Baqua sanitizer - 16 oz $20.99 and Baqua test strips - 50 $16.95 (not on Leslies) That's $65.92 and how long will all this last?

I typically don't have a problem with my tub as long as I keep up on sanitizing the tub regularly with the proper amount of chlorine and not experimenting to see how long I can go ... with 3 PPM chlorine I can go every other day or so and still have a safe tub, this is exhibited by the fact that I have a free chlorine residue for usually over 24 hours.

Other than a biologically safe tub for people who aren't sensitive to chlorine/bromine ... what else is there? It's easy for me to throw in a scoop or 2 of dichlor in the AM or PM.

I read that people get water mold from Baqua. I read that the bubbling makes them cough on Baqua. I read that it can be really fussy in it's care ... If I screw up chlorine, I just throw in a whole bunch of chlorine (10+ PPM) and wait a few days, squirt in Sea Klear, clean my filter and I am good to go.

Ya know, I was asking an honest question, it wasn't loaded but it turned into this!

[Vinny]

Oh, I forgot 1 thing for the water sanitizing ... MPS, I buy Sea Klear from Doc 2.2 lbs $15.95. I use it about every other week so it's another $32 a year for a total of $132 a year to sanitze and $183 a year total.

[Vinny]

Ok I think I found some info on Soft Soak ...

1 PT = 16 oz - 12.99 sanitizer
1 QT = 32 oz - 8.99  shock
1 lb = 16 oz - 14.99 conditioner
1 PT = 16 oz - 8.99 stain and scale
filter cleaner (recommended - I don't know if you can use other cleaner) - 13.99
50 test strips - 19.99

Procedure to use taken from the Spaguard website:

STARTUP

1. Fill spa with water.

2. Once spa is filled, start equipment following the manufacturer’s directions.

3. Balance spa water with SpaGuard® Total Alkalinity Increaser and Calcium Hardness Increaser. Follow label directions or recommendations from your SpaGuard computerized water analysis.

4. Add the following amounts of SoftSoak® products per 150 gallons of spa water:
Add 5 ounces of SoftSoak Spa Conditioner*
Add 1 ounce of SoftSoak Stain & Scale Control
Add 3 ounces of SoftSoak Spa Shock
Circulate your water continuously for approximately 30 minutes with the blowers off.

5. Add 1 ounce of SoftSoak Sanitizer per 150 gallons of spa water and circulate continuously again for approximately 30 minutes.

6. Using SoftSoak Water Test Strips, check your SoftSoak Sanitizer level and pH. The sanitizer level should be between 30 and 50 ppm and the pH should be within 7.4


* Under normal conditions, Soft Soak Spa Conditioner will not have to be reapplied until the spa is drained and refilled.


WEEKLY


1. Using SoftSoak Water Test Strips, test the pH, total alkalinity, calcium hardness and sanitizer levels of your spa. Write down the results.


2. Add the following amounts of SoftSoak products per 150 gallons of spa water:
Add 1/4 ounce of SoftSoak Stain & Scale Control
Add between 1 1/2 to 3 ounces of SoftSoak Spa Shock according to spa use rate. If your spa is used three or more times per week, add 3 ounces per 150 gallons of spa water.

3. The SoftSoak Sanitizer levels should be 30 - 50 ppm. If sanitizer level is 11 - 30 ppm, add
1/2 ounce of SoftSoak Sanitizer per 150 gallons of spa water. If sanitizer level is 0 - 10 ppm, add 1 ounce of SoftSoak Sanitizer per 150 gallons of spa water.

4. If pH is outside 7.2 to 7.6, adjust as needed with Spa Guard pH Increaser or pH Decreaser to 7.4.

5. Circulate for 30 minutes with the blowers off.

So for a 450 gallon spa (mine is 400 gallon)

startup chems = 15 oz conditioner, 3 oz stain and scale, 9 oz shock and 3 oz of sanitizer.

1 PT = 16 oz - 12.99 sanitizer = .81/oz
1 QT = 32 oz - 8.99  shock = .28/oz
1 lb = 16 oz - 14.99 conditioner = .94/oz
1 PT = 16 oz - 8.99 stain and scale = .56/oz

15 (.94) + 3(.56) + 9(.28) + 3(.81) =14.1 + 1.68 + 2.52 + 2.43 = $20.73 for startup every 4 months = $82.92

for weekly:

(1/4)(3)(.56) + 3(1.5)(.28) + (1/2)(3)(.81) = .42 + 1.13 + 1.22 = $2.77 weekly for 48 weeks = $132.96

132.96 + 82.92 = $215.88 per year for Soft Soak. It's about $84 more expensive per year to run with this system. I also used the lower figures for shock and sanitizer for this comparison.

I have not added the cost of test strips $20 for 50 (Taylor is $50 for a kit that lasts approximately 1 year) and since I don't know anything about this type of product, any other "Soft Soak" product that someone might need to use.

Am I missing something? Is it about the same? If I added N2 to my routine then yes it would be close! But if I doubled the weekly shock and sanitizer add another $92 to the yearly figure.