Who is telling me the truth?Arctic or Beachcomber?

[Joel T]

I think we came into this arena about the same time and also came to the same conclusion about Arctic. It's obviously as well built as many and better built than most.  It's hands down better built than any I saw that includes Hot Springs, CalSpa, Marquis, Sundance, LaSpa and, while a close 2nd, Coleman, which we bought due to better "fit." The differences are black and white I think. The Arctic top's better, the shell's better and the bottom's better. The framing may be average but last, yet not least, their method of TP is (arguably) better. You're fighting a lot of defensive salesman treating this like arguments about who's wife's better. (Mine obviously.) You need a smiley face that infers "nod and smile" or "whatever" for those types that manuever the facts to suit their spa (or wife.)

Joel

[shabba34]

I think we came into this arena about the same time and also came to the same conclusion about Arctic. It's obviously as well built as many and better built than most.  It's hands down better built than any I saw that includes Hot Springs, CalSpa, Marquis, Sundance, LaSpa and, while a close 2nd, Coleman, which we bought due to better "fit." The differences are black and white I think. The Arctic top's better, the shell's better and the bottom's better. The framing may be average but last, yet not least, their method of TP is (arguably) better. You're fighting a lot of defensive salesman treating this like arguments about who's wife's better. (Mine obviously.) You need a smiley face that infers "nod and smile" or "whatever" for those types that manuever the facts to suit their spa (or wife.)

Joel

My wife is "hands down", "obviously" in plane "black and white", "BETTER"!  Thanks for your "opinions" Joel T.

[wesj53]

Can someone tell me the definition of sealed dead air space???  I have to be missing something.

Now your telling me that the pressure of the hot air would prevent the cold coming in that small air gap

this would be considered by most people as heat loss
I never said anything about cold air entering  
Top 10 in terms of What?
The point of the experiment is longevity of the design it is an older tub. So unless your only concern is the first couple years of efficiency then thats great.
There is no "iceberg"

And people say Hot Springs Kool Aid is strong  

I didn't know this friendly little "debate" was going to turn into a linguistics lesson, but let my try to respond to your question about defining "sealed dead air space". Yes, Arctic uses that language in their product brochure, but their sentence continues by adding, "similar to that found in most houses in the northern parts of the US and Canada". Now I think we can all use common sense to understand that sealed dead air space does not mean "air tight" (a vacuum).  As Anne correctly mentioned who would want that? Any house or spa chamber has to "breathe" to some degree (ask any HVAC contractor).

Now that we've established that meaning, let me move on to how hot air could inhibit cold air from coming into the chamber. I am not a physics expert, but I seem to remember from high school that hot air molecules are more dense than cold (maybe Altazi, the physics guru could help here). In addition, hot air wants to rise (to the seal area in which we are discussing) and will apply pressure to whatever small crevise that may exist between the inside and out. Finally, I believe that the pressure of the inside air is greater than the outside which would also deter cold air from entering. If someone wants to verify or dispute those hypotheses, I am all ears. But all of this is moot since your argument or implication is based upon the premise that (some or all?) Arctic spas leak between the shell and the cabinet (which has not even been proven with your picture).

Next, top 10 in terms of sales dollars last year. (I mentioned this per my dealer. I don't know if industry stats are published anywhere but I'd sure like to see them. They must be available since Hot Springs claims to be the largest and nobody seems to question that.)

No, I am concerned with longevity. That is why I purchased an Arctic. However, if it makes you feel better as a CalSpa dealer, I really liked their new Avalon series and model #A857B which I may have purchased if not for both their dealers in metro Chicago failing to actively sell them here.

It sure looks like an iceberg to me!

Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!

[shabba34]

Can someone tell me the definition of sealed dead air space???  I have to be missing something.

Now your telling me that the pressure of the hot air would prevent the cold coming in that small air gap

this would be considered by most people as heat loss
I never said anything about cold air entering  
Top 10 in terms of What?
The point of the experiment is longevity of the design it is an older tub. So unless your only concern is the first couple years of efficiency then thats great.
There is no "iceberg"

And people say Hot Springs Kool Aid is strong  

It sure looks like an iceberg to me!

Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!

Iceberg?  Is than not just a whitish shell color on a spa without a cover on it.  That is one of the reasons I was confused when wesj53 was talking about that not being an Arctic cover in the pic.  
PS.  
Fact:  Arctic has a thick cover.  Better than others?  Speculation!
Fact:  Arctic spas uses tp design.  Better than others?  High speculation!
Fact;  Arctic spas has etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...  Speculation!
Insert any brand spa you like, same conclusion to the public.  
Everyone loves KOOl-AID!
      

[wesj53]

First of all pkud, I stated that I didn't know what was on top of the spa, but rather identified the cabinet as an Arctic. (I still don't know what is covering the spa.)

Secondly, you seem to imply that you believe the spa industry exists in a world of total subjectivity, no brand is any better than any brand. Then could I extrapolate out that HS is the number one seller for just it's reputation, or that dealers just mention they are #1 and consumers are just sheep and follow the crowd?

[shabba34]

First of all pkud, I stated that I didn't know what was on top of the spa, but rather identified the cabinet as an Arctic. (I still don't know what is covering the spa.)

Secondly, you seem to imply that you believe the spa industry exists in a world of total subjectivity, no brand is any better than any brand. Then could I extrapolate out that HS is the number one seller for just it's reputation, or that dealers just mention they are #1 and consumers are just sheep and follow the crowd?

To answer your question wesj53, yes the industry is very subjective.  I'm not naive...  The reason why HS is #1 is due to the size of their dealer network, their corporate advertising campaigns, length of time in the industry, compentant dealers(Most of them), and lastly making a fine product with a great warranty.  The best??  Subjective.  I've never touted superiority of my product, but defended in cases where I felt necessary.

[wesj53]

Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?

Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!

[shabba34]

Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?

Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!

Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud.  Miami is still in my wheelhouse.  He'll need a spa with that job.  

[wesj53]

Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?

Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!

Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud.  Miami is still in my wheelhouse.  He'll need a spa with that job.  

That's what I just told him but he's only 23 and will be living in the south Florida "jungle". He asks, why do I need a HOT tub in that environment? I said, hey, in the middle of Jan it MIGHT get down into the 50's at night - brrrrr ... ! A far cry from what he's used to here in the Chicago area and our lake home in northern WI

[shabba34]

Gee pkud, you sound like a nice, honest guy. I am too! Why then are we selling hot tubs and insurance?

Where are you located in FL. My son has been extended a "tentative" job offer by the FAA as a flight controller at Miami International, hopefully to start sometime in Feb after his 2 month training at OK city. Maybe I could generate a sale for you?!

Live in Palm Beach, but store is in Ft Laud.  Miami is still in my wheelhouse.  He'll need a spa with that job.  

He asks, why do I need a HOT tub in that environment?

Because he is 23 and living in S FL.   8-)

[anne]

I am not a physics expert, but I seem to remember from high school that hot air molecules are more dense than cold (maybe Altazi, the physics guru could help here). In addition, hot air wants to rise (to the seal area in which we are discussing) and will apply pressure to whatever small crevise that may exist between the inside and out. Finally, I believe that the pressure of the inside air is greater than the outside which would also deter cold air from entering. If someone wants to verify or dispute those hypotheses, I am all ears.

I'm dont really want to get involved in the meaning of that photo in terms of whether the cabinet is faulty or not, but I cant let the physics go uncorrected......I'm not physics guru, but I can tell you that hot air molecules are LESS dense (thus hot air rises). Since warm air molecules are trying to expand, and the crack is on the top, that pressure and temperature gradient would mean that it is more likely that warm air would leak out of a crevice than that cold air would leak in. Does that matter here? Dunno.

If my cabinet is leaking lot 'o hot air, my electric bill sure has not demonstrated that.

[Tom]

Had a chance to skim through this.  Fascinating thread, people treating each other with respect despite misunderstandings, mostly on topic, good discussion.  Love it!

PKUD, one of the best critiques of the ARC study I've seen, though there was no need to shout.       I hope to rebut this tomorrow if I have time.

Tom
Arctic Spas

[Spatech_tuo]

Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!

LOL, arctic owners are no different than owners of Marquis, Vita, Hot Springs, Beachcomber, etc. Some understand how their spas work very well and have great points to make, some just pass on what they've been told, some are defensive of their product and will defend it to the death no matter what, some are open minded, some are not, some just like the look and feel of it, some wet tested, some didn't, some bought it because their friend had good luck with theirs, some drink the kool-aid, some help make the kool-aid, some have no idea there is any koo-aid, etc. As far as the truth hurting, it depends on who's truth you're referring to.

[wesj53]

Was there a point somewhere in there Mr. Norge Repairman?

[anne]

Fortunately we Arctic owners don't : drink Kool Aid (we like higher quality beverages) and we also try and express facts about our brand without demeaning the competition. I guess the truth hurts!

LOL, arctic owners are no different than owners of Marquis, Vita, Hot Springs, Beachcomber, etc. Some understand how their spas work very well and have great points to make, some just pass on what they've been told, some are defensive of their product and will defend it to the death no matter what, some are open minded, some are not, some just like the look and feel of it, some wet tested, some didn't, some bought it because their friend had good luck with theirs, some drink the kool-aid, some help make the kool-aid, some have no idea there is any koo-aid, etc. As far as the truth hurting, it depends on who's truth you're referring to.

LOL! That is a PERFECT summary of this nutty place!