Who is telling me the truth?Arctic or Beachcomber?

[wesj53]

I'm curious what was the determining factor for you choosing Arctic vs. other brands?
Was it the Heatlock design? If so why? Because of the potential cost savings in electricity?

Good questions. I don't want to ramble on the Arctic line; some folks might think I'm a dealer. I'm not so I will just refer you to their website and you can read for yourself. It was just our opinion that Arctic makes the highest quality product in the market so that was our NUMBER ONE reason for our decision. The Heatlock system was a HUGE singular reason why we also purchaed one, and yes, the possible energy savings was also a factor (although I have to be fair with the FF people, we will wait to see on that one). But the Alberta study seems to suggest we will spend less on heating our spa than a FF here in metro Chicago.  (see my full post on 'who is telling the truth, Arctic or Beachcomber?') We await it's delivery to us in mid Oct.

[wesj53]

If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!  

There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.

That' why I stated "sooner or later". Yes, a quality built spa could go a lifetime without leaks, but all I'm saying is that leaks are possible with any, including Arctic. If a leak does develop, the argument is over as to which unit will be easier to repair. Common sense tells all of us that finding and repairing a leak in a FF tub will be definitely more difficult and time consuming to repair. But I did not buy the Arctic ONLY because of the Heatlock system, but rather for a variety of other quality issues, # of jets, comfort, seating arrangements, etc.

[wesj53]

Congrats on your purchase. The waiting is the hardest part. I love my Summit Legend SE, and the Tundra seems to be a great seller.

When you sit in it for the fisr time in your own back yard, don't worry- you wont be thinking about TP vs FF vs Heatlock......

Thanks for your kind words. I very much enjoyed looking at your pics of your installation. I knew it was an Arctic based upon their second-to-none real wood cabinet! I am planning my install similar to yours. And what another great Arctic feature - the Forever Floor - which does not require a concrete, tile, brick, etc base - just crushed stone! When my dealer comes out to install, he will guarantee my level which will assure my lifetime shell warranty. (the Summit was our second favorite design). You gotta love all those jets!

[sledjunkie]

My opinion is you shouldn't have used insulation and/or quality as a deciding factor in your spa purchase.

Now if you would have said something like..

I liked the look, color, and feel of the arctic and, to boot I got an exceptional price that nobody else could beat when comparing the features that I thought were important to me..

That would be a different story..

Either way, enjoy the rest of the process, and your hot tub..

[Pathfinder]

I wouldn t really say  the Air tight scheme of things has longevity

Wesj53"The TP method of production to my knowledge consists of foaming the perimeter of the cabinet AS WELL AS the complete bottom of the spa, leaving a chamber of airspace which heats up thru use of motor pumps. The heatlock system (used by Arctic only to my knowledge) foams the perimeter of the cabinet and ONLY the area between the lip of the shell and the cabinet (where outside air can leak in). There is NO foam placed against the bottom of the shell"



This is a pic of the lip of an Arctic as the somke proves its not air tight

[In_Too_Long]

If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first

[wesj53]

My opinion is you shouldn't have used insulation and/or quality as a deciding factor in your spa purchase.

Now if you would have said something like..

I liked the look, color, and feel of the arctic and, to boot I got an exceptional price that nobody else could beat when comparing the features that I thought were important to me..

That would be a different story..

Either way, enjoy the rest of the process, and your hot tub..

My words, number 1 reason for buying the Arctic was 'the best quality spa in the market', not the insulation. Yes, my wife and I also liked the beautiful wood cabinet and the feel of the 75 jets, seating arrangement, as well as a whole variety of other items, but I didn't want to bore you with the details.

[wesj53]

If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first

Your first comment doesn't even dignify a response. The more I'm on these websites, the more I find people can't read and understand or want to listen to different opinions. And I never ever said anything about a Beachcomber. See ya all much later.

[shabba34]

Next, most arguments between the FF and the non-FF folks center around cost efficiency and repair costs. I have never seen any evidence by the FF people suggesting that their system is less expensive to operate but I have seen a study (admittedly commissioned by Arctic) that shows the Heatlock system to be on average less expensive to operate than comparable FF models. (Their study seems to be objectively administered as one Arctic model was not in the top echelon of efficiency, and no other mfgs have to my knowledge objected to the study).

 

Just a little clarification on the Arctic Spa Thermal Study:

(1)  This study was done on each spa independently. In other words not at the same time, hence each product was being tested in fluctuating conditions including differences in ambient temperature and spa water temp of each model tested.

- The power consumption charts which are available to the public infact show that the HotSpring spa outperformed any of the other spas tested based upon kilowatt usage.  Everyone knows how our energy bill is formulated....Kilowatt usage!

(2)  The figures that Arctic Spas used to determine the outcome of the study is completely altered by the fact that the data used was created by dividing the total power consumed by the volume of water in each spa.

-  This calculation works in Arctic Spas favor because the spas tested did not all have the same water capacity.  Two of the Arctic spas tested both have larger volumes of water then the HS spa tested.  Obviously, when dividing the total power consumed by a larger # the result will falsly improve the Arctic figures.  When a similarly sized Arctic spa was tested compared to the same size HotSpring model, even with their erroneous calculations, the HS spa consumed significantly less energy.

(3)  In this study The HotSpring Spa is labled with an asterisk in all the power consumption charts.  This shows that the spa does not have Auto-filtering, or that the filtering must be started manually.  Infact, HotSpring spas have a 24hr circ pump for filtering with no need to manually start any filtering cycles.  

-  The Alberta Research Counsil activated the HotSpring main jet pump in addition to the 24 hr circ pump for filtering cycles for a period of time equal to the Arctic Spa.  All the other spas tested were done so while they were filtering on low speed, while the HS model was tested while pumps were on high speed.  It would be understandable how skewed the figures could be!  Or not.

Even after the HotSpring Vanguard was tested unfairly with the pumps on high speed, it still consumed 40% less energy then the comparable sized Arctic Coyote model without the skewed figures. Even when adding in the false calculations, the Vanguard still consumed 20% less energy!  

[anne]

If thermal lock insulation or whatever people call their dead air space insulation is so good, why don't they use it in their covers. Lets make a a cover with an open area in between some foam and heat it with a pump 8 hours a day. Just curious.
As for a Beachcomber losing heat, while sitting in a 750 this weekend, we ran the jets for 40 minutes straight and the temp went up from 104 to 105 so much for heat escaping from a full foam tub with the equipment "on the outside"
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Choose comfort first

Your first comment doesn't even dignify a response. The more I'm on these websites, the more I find people can't read and understand or want to listen to different opinions. And I never ever said anything about a Beachcomber. See ya all much later.

Wes, I think he assumed that you started this thread......thus the Beachcomber comment. Unfortunately, this is such a sticky topic that even the most level headed people get their knickers in a twist over it........and I'm not pointing that at InTooLong, but I can see where this is all about to go!!!! I wish that Arctic had never done that study. It gave Arctic dealers crap to spout to buyers, and as it's study methods seem less than scientific, it fueled the fire for HS people, too. Sigh.  Perhaps I need to go relax in my poorly energy efficient but oh-so-comfy spa.

[Spatech_tuo]

If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!  

There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.

That' why I stated "sooner or later". Yes, a quality built spa could go a lifetime without leaks, but all I'm saying is that leaks are possible with any, including Arctic. If a leak does develop, the argument is over as to which unit will be easier to repair. Common sense tells all of us that finding and repairing a leak in a FF tub will be definitely more difficult and time consuming to repair. But I did not buy the Arctic ONLY because of the Heatlock system, but rather for a variety of other quality issues, # of jets, comfort, seating arrangements, etc.

... but "later" can be 1,000 years from now. If you were to take a reasonably high spa life number like 15 yrs then NO, there is no consensus that your spa will eventually leak from a permanent glue joint (obviously we're not talking pump unions and heater connections inside the equipment area which are different but also shouldn't give you issues). That is a long time scare tactic statement often made by one shady character in the spa business which makes many of us roll our eyes (I obviously don't know who passed it on to you) so when I read your statement (carefully) relative to some perceived consensus, I was merely commenting on it's inaccuracy.

[In_Too_Long]

My comment about the cover was done tongue in cheek and the longer i'm on these websites, the more I find people with no sense of humor.
 You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
 Comfort is the most important thing when buying your tub, ask any professional that cares about the industry. Ask any professional that cares only about there product and that is where the debate starts. These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact. The only real fact is, those you feel more comfortable in their tubs use them more and they don't give a flip about electricity costs. If you are buying because of jet count, well that's another issue, but if you wet tested and liked it, who cares what anyone else thinks, and which point, why post?Unless you have an agenda. To all my fellow professionals that care about the industry and growing it, I salute you. For those here just to promote their agenda and disguise it as if they are a consumer, well I salute you also, for giving this industry a black eye.

[anne]

You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
 

No, he didn't. That was Lagator who started this thread.

These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact.

Whether something comes from the mouth of a dealer, or a dealer pretending to be a consumer, or a real consumer, it is still generally opinion. Even extremely honest, straight-forward consumer-advocate dealers are still biased toward their product. There is nothing wrong with that, but it should be recognized.

[wesj53]

My comment about the cover was done tongue in cheek and the longer i'm on these websites, the more I find people with no sense of humor.
 You asked orginally about Beachcomber and when you go to Arctic's website, were you recieved alot of your information, they deliberately attack Beachcomber with their diagram and analogy of a heater on the outside of the house and how it doesn't make sense. Anything can be taken out of context.
 Comfort is the most important thing when buying your tub, ask any professional that cares about the industry. Ask any professional that cares only about there product and that is where the debate starts. These forums are full of dealers disguising themselves as consumers making their opinions sound like fact. The only real fact is, those you feel more comfortable in their tubs use them more and they don't give a flip about electricity costs. If you are buying because of jet count, well that's another issue, but if you wet tested and liked it, who cares what anyone else thinks, and which point, why post?Unless you have an agenda. To all my fellow professionals that care about the industry and growing it, I salute you. For those here just to promote their agenda and disguise it as if they are a consumer, well I salute you also, for giving this industry a black eye.

One of the reasons why people don't SOUND like they have a sense of humor is because many people on these sites don't read very carefully and comprehend very well. I thought my original post on this thread was quite clear and non-threatening to any other brand. I said my major reason for purchasing the Arctic was it's overall quality production - IMO, second to none in the industry from the bottom (Forever Floor) to the top (their Castcore Cover). Obviously, the Tundra was very comfortable for us but I didn't think to itemize it since it's preposterous to think someone would buy a spa that was uncomfortable. That is why we would never buy a tub that we could not wet test. I also said clearly that I liked the Heatlock system, but I didn't have absolute proof that it would be as efficient as FF systems. I was going to withhold judgment and then report back to this site as to my own energy results. And as Anne pointed out, I didn't even mention Beachcomber. And if you hadn't mentioned Beachcomber as the mfg Arctic was referring to, I nor most of the readers on this site would have ever known. So you have a lot of inaccuracies in your post and I just want to set the record straight.

I do appreciate imput such as that supplied by pkud. As I also mentioned, I have not heard much debate from the industry types on these sites about the Arctic study. Now I have and I will look once again at the Arctic study and re-evalute the credibility of the research.

[sledjunkie]

Well at least you bought your tub based on comfort, feel, look, price, etc...

Honestly that wasn't the impression you gave with you post regarding quality, as well as the way you spoke of the insulation. I know it's hard to comprehend text but you should understand this is a hot tub forum and people can be very defensive of their brand, even when someone states facts like tub specifications.
I think most do it just to reasure themselves they made a good decision, since there is very little evidence of which actually is the best hot tub...

Which is sort of ironic considering the domain name.