Who is telling me the truth?Arctic or Beachcomber?

[In_Too_Long]

I sell Pumpkins

[Rayman]

Rayman, what does beachcomber put on the bottom of their tubs. I was told by a coleman salesman that the wood frame and the insulation are exposed on the bottom of the tub.

Yes Beachcomber has put a bottom on their 2006 lineup.

[Silent Water]

Great analogy, Anne!  'Cept, now I'm hungry for fruit salad!

[lagator43]

Who is telling the truth?  Help.

Wow- this has been a great thread. Granted FF vs TP seems like an old issue, but this is a nice friendly debate about interesting stuff......

Sounds like the answer to the above is that there IS no "truth." One guy is selling apples, and the other is selling oranges. If both apples and oranges provide part of your daily fiber and vitamin intake for the day, and both have good antioxidants, and are fresh and well grown, then you just have to pick which fruit you prefer. If the apple salesman is a jerk, or the oranges are overpriced, that makes your decision harder. However, I dont this too many people would argue that in general apples and oranges are both healthy choices.

Great analogy

[Altazi]

Who is telling the truth?  Help.

Wow- this has been a great thread. Granted FF vs TP seems like an old issue, but this is a nice friendly debate about interesting stuff......

Sounds like the answer to the above is that there IS no "truth." One guy is selling apples, and the other is selling oranges. If both apples and oranges provide part of your daily fiber and vitamin intake for the day, and both have good antioxidants, and are fresh and well grown, then you just have to pick which fruit you prefer. If the apple salesman is a jerk, or the oranges are overpriced, that makes your decision harder. However, I dont this too many people would argue that in general apples and oranges are both healthy choices.

Perhaps we have learned to gently pat the dead horse, instead of beating it

[jfish63]

The 2006 models are enclosed with a composite polymer base called a "PermaSeal foundation".


Silent water and Rayman thanks for the answer. I could not find that info on their web site or in the brochure the dealer gave me.

[ndabunka]

His lips are moving..  

[Altazi]

Or. . .

Q.  What is the difference between a Spa salesman and a used-car salesman?

A.  The used-car salesman KNOWS he's lying!  

[Silent Water]

I could not find that info on their web site or in the brochure the dealer gave me.

Whoops! Sorry 'bout that.  I found the term "Permaseal foundation" on the quote that the dealer prepared for me.  Don't think I saw it in the literature.  No way you'd know unless he told you.  

I had to distract the poor salesperson from his monologue about Chris Carter (yes - apparently the producer of the X-files owns a Beachcomber -  8-)whoopie!~) to ask about the base and the cover...

[anne]

Perhaps we have learned to gently pat the dead horse, instead of beating it

Well look at that! Another great analogy! I'm usually a fan of patting, not beating horsies and other critters.
 

[wesj53]

This thread seems to be almost over and I know this is an exhausted subject. Industry types must be tired of it but allow me as a newbie to offer you my opinion, which was learned thru my spa hunting trip over the last 6 weeks.

I am not a dealer so I came into the process without any biases. I knew nothing about hot tubs but tried to educate myself to the best of my ability. What I learned is that there are 3 distinct methods of mfg a hot tub - full foam, thermopane, and heatlock. I think we all know about the process of FF, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about the latter 2. The TP method of production to my knowledge consists of foaming the perimeter of the cabinet AS WELL AS the complete bottom of the spa, leaving a chamber of airspace which heats up thru use of motor pumps. The heatlock system (used by Arctic only to my knowledge) foams the perimeter of the cabinet and ONLY the area between the lip of the shell and the cabinet (where outside air can leak in). There is NO foam placed against the bottom of the shell. When I began to think about this difference, I came to the conclusion that the TP people were self-defeating their objective by creating an insulation layer of foam between their shell and the heated chamber. Arctic, on the other hand, created an environment which allowed for maximum heating of the shell via the the heated air below it. So I ruled out the TP brands on this basis, as well as the poor QC and high level of consumer objections against many of them. (Coleman & Master excluded)

Next, most arguments between the FF and the non-FF folks center around cost efficiency and repair costs. I have never seen any evidence by the FF people suggesting that their system is less expensive to operate but I have seen a study (admittedly commissioned by Arctic) that shows the Heatlock system to be on average less expensive to operate than comparable FF models. (Their study seems to be objectively administered as one Arctic model was not in the top echelon of efficiency, and no other mfgs have to my knowledge objected to the study).

More importantly to me was the cost of repair to FF vs non FF products. If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER! Well, as a projected long term owner, I wanted the spa which would cost the least amount of money and time to repair. In my inspection of many brands and using my own good logic, I came to the easy conclusion that an open method of production like the Arctic would HAVE TO BE the easiest to locate and repair a leak.

So I await delivery of my new Arctic Tundra Legend SE. I hope I have made a wise decision and will report objectively as to energy costs and quality of their product. I will be very honest with all, especially in light of the fact that the Arctic line is at the upper end of the cost scale (although IMO you get a lot more for your money in terms of features, jets, etc, than other comparably priced units).

[sledjunkie]

I'm curious what was the determining factor for you choosing Arctic vs. other brands?
Was it the Heatlock design? If so why? Because of the potential cost savings in electricity?

[anne]

Congrats on your purchase. The waiting is the hardest part. I love my Summit Legend SE, and the Tundra seems to be a great seller.

When you sit in it for the fisr time in your own back yard, don't worry- you wont be thinking about TP vs FF vs Heatlock......

[Spatech_tuo]

If there is one consensus in this industry it's this. HOT TUBS WILL LEAK SOONER OR LATER!  

There is no such consensus unless you're talking about "forever". A good spa should last you 10+ yrs and it is not uncommon to see 15, 18 or even 20 yr old spas out there is they are well made. You do not need to expect that all of those would have leaked at some point. My spa is 8 yrs old and has never leaked and I have no expectation that it will leak in the next 10 yrs but there is certainly a chance. Now if you were to ask me if it will leak in the next 80 yrs I might be less confident but there is somewhat of a finite life expectancy of your spa. If it is built well you do not need to sit there expecting that it will leak within the spa's life expectancy. Certainly there is a certain % will leak but it should be VERY very low rather than some "sooner or later" expectation as you've been led to believe. Again, I'm talking about quality built spas.

[jfish63]

I have a 93 D1 ff no leaks to date. When I buy a new spa it will be my comfort and not ff or tp. As long as you buy from a reputable spa manufacturer I don't think the insulation should be the deciding factor. If I save 5 bucks a month how much is it worth if my tub is uncomfortable and I don't use it?