Help - PH & Total Alkalinity Struggles

[dptubber]

New owner here, now 2 weeks of Chemistry and still having balancing problems...

I am owner of the Sundance Marin (335 gal per specs) using dichlor, nature2 stick and an ozone system.

My tub was filled with hard water from outside, bypassing my softener.  I began testing my water immediately using the test strips that came with the startup kit.  

PH - excess of 8.4 and TA - Excess of 240

Over a matter of 3 days, I added 9 tablespoons of PH Down and still had same reading.  This was added while the pumps were running.  I went back to dealership and purchased a Basic 4 test kit (I asked if they had the Taylor kit that so many talk about here...they said it was similiar).  The salemen felt that the PH was locked (Not sure what that means)

He instructed me to add an additional 9 tablespoons of PH Down and drop it in the center of the tub without the pumps running and after 3 hours, run the pumps for 1/2 hour and test again.

Before adding, I tested the water with the Kit, which indicated the PH was in excess of 8.2 and the acid demand test indicated that I need 4/5 oz of Muriatic Acid to reach a level of 7.6.  The TA was at 270.

After using the PH Down as instructed, my PH was 7.8 and TA was 120.  Although my PH was still high, I decided to wait few days until I added water to compensate for evaporation.

I added about an inch of water this weekend and did my test again.  The PH was off the chart again.

Just today, I added 3 tablespoons of PH Down and my current PH is excess of 8.2 and the acid demand test indicated I need 1/2 oz of Muriatic Acid to reach a level of 7.6.  The TA is 70.

Wow, that was tough to get out as a newbie.  Sorry about the excessive details.

My questions...
1) How do I lower the PH while not affecting the TA?
2) The PH Down doesn't indicate what ingredients it contains.  Can I assume this is Muriatic Acid?
3) Does the PH Down work differently if used while the pumps are running vs. a drop and soak method?
4) Based on my last reading above, what do you recommend I do?
5) Does the amount of Dichlor have any effect on the PH & TA readings?

I would like to make it to the newbie 1 month dump water rule, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks so much!

[Vinny]

New owner here, now 2 weeks of Chemistry and still having balancing problems...

I am owner of the Sundance Marin (335 gal per specs) using dichlor, nature2 stick and an ozone system.

My tub was filled with hard water from outside, bypassing my softener.  I began testing my water immediately using the test strips that came with the startup kit.  

PH - excess of 8.4 and TA - Excess of 240

Over a matter of 3 days, I added 9 tablespoons of PH Down and still had same reading.  This was added while the pumps were running.  I went back to dealership and purchased a Basic 4 test kit (I asked if they had the Taylor kit that so many talk about here...they said it was similiar).  The salemen felt that the PH was locked (Not sure what that means)

He instructed me to add an additional 9 tablespoons of PH Down and drop it in the center of the tub without the pumps running and after 3 hours, run the pumps for 1/2 hour and test again.

Before adding, I tested the water with the Kit, which indicated the PH was in excess of 8.2 and the acid demand test indicated that I need 4/5 oz of Muriatic Acid to reach a level of 7.6.  The TA was at 270.

After using the PH Down as instructed, my PH was 7.8 and TA was 120.  Although my PH was still high, I decided to wait few days until I added water to compensate for evaporation.

I added about an inch of water this weekend and did my test again.  The PH was off the chart again.

Just today, I added 3 tablespoons of PH Down and my current PH is excess of 8.2 and the acid demand test indicated I need 1/2 oz of Muriatic Acid to reach a level of 7.6.  The TA is 70.

Wow, that was tough to get out as a newbie.  Sorry about the excessive details.

My questions...
1) How do I lower the PH while not affecting the TA?
2) The PH Down doesn't indicate what ingredients it contains.  Can I assume this is Muriatic Acid?
3) Does the PH Down work differently if used while the pumps are running vs. a drop and soak method?
4) Based on my last reading above, what do you recommend I do?
5) Does the amount of Dichlor have any effect on the PH & TA readings?

I would like to make it to the newbie 1 month dump water rule, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks so much!

1) How do I lower the PH while not affecting the TA?   You can't, both are affected.

2) The PH Down doesn't indicate what ingredients it contains.  Can I assume this is Muriatic Acid?    No it's not Muriatic acid, I believe it's Sodium Bisulfate. You need to use a little more than with Muriatic acid.

3) Does the PH Down work differently if used while the pumps are running vs. a drop and soak method?   I've read it does make a difference but no real experience myself.

4) Based on my last reading above, what do you recommend I do?    I would worry about PH - BUT you also need to know the calcium level. Too high (hard water) calcium reading have its own problems.

5) Does the amount of Dichlor have any effect on the PH & TA readings?   Yes, it can. Always test water with very little chlorine in the tub.


What your experiencing is the fact that water is being buffered by the high alkalinity, that's what alkalinity does.

Lower your PH and you need to know what your calcium level is. Bring a water sample to your dealer and ask what they would do. If their local they should know how to handle your water.

[kellpup2112]

My PH and TA are about the same as yours when I fill my tub with fresh water.  My dealer said that they would drop naturally over time, and I have found that they do. I change my water every 4 months and have found that after about 3 months, I have to use PH up. From what I have gathered by listening to my dealer and reading this forum, low PH can cause more serious problems than high PH and alkilinity. If both are high, scale is the main problem. I use about 2 ounces of stain and scale weekly and have not encountered any problems. I'm still relatively new at this (had the tub for a year) so if anyone thinks I'm on the wrong track let me know. Otherwise, my advice to you is to use stain and scale and don't worry too much about your high PH and TA. They should come down on their own. Enjoy the tub! By the way, I use dichlor daily (2 tsp) and shock with dichlor every week or two. I also have an ozonator.

[dptubber]

Vinny,

Thanks for reply.  Is there a water testing kit that a consumer can purchase that will test for calcium levels?  My test kit does not have that.

[Garyjr]

dptubber,

You can get a Taylor kit that will test for calcium hardness.  

Jr

[Joel T]

Don't have any good advice but can relate our similar experiences.

We're at day 8 of soaking and 6 days with really good readings. Our first readings of virgin well water were even higher than yours - ph was 9+, TA was 290 and Calcium was 1. We're at a little over 450gals and don't use frogs, ozone or the like. I've heard that ozone works well with bromine but that chlorine and ozone kinda fight each other. We never added our dichlore until the pH and TA were good.  The tests were/are done with both strips and drops and have always added chems with pumps running. After 25 tablespoons of pH reducer (sodium bisulfate,) the TA got down to 110 and the pH was 8.0. This was over a period of a day and a half. Then I added 14oz Calcium increaser which got that up to 200 or so. (I was slow at dosing first and nobody's ever said yet whether I can do this all at once next time.) Then 1 more tablespoon of pH decreaser got the TA to 90 and the pH to 7.2. I was told that after getting the TA down to 100 or even lower that if the pH is still high, to sit tight, that the pH will probably settle down to a good level if the TA's in a good range. We've been putting in 2 teaspoons of dichlore each night and everything's staying steady, perfectly clear, no foam, no smell, just reeeeal nice.  (Knock on wood... and water) We're gonna shock/oxidize after our soak tonight (with dichlore) for the first time with 10 teaspoons as Vermonter's suggested and see what tomorrow shows. We gotta add a little more water tomorrow too, but will wait until the chlorine settles down.

Joel

[anne]

I have had similar but not quite so severe pH and TA issues, so I sympathize!!! As far as adding acid with or without pumps, I dont believe that there is going to be any difference in how it works, but it is inadvisable to have a strong acid solution or acid particles in your plumbing. Therefore, you want it well mixed in the tub before having the pumps on.

I dont thing I would just add it in the center and let it sit, either....seems like it could sort of pool on one section of the shell, and maybe casue damage before it all equilibrated in the water. I take my measured amount of dry acid in a plastic container, scoop up some spa water and swirl it around to dissolve the acid, then add it in with my therapy air/venturi pump (air bubbler?) (whachamacallit) on to help mix it in. If you dont have air, maybe just dribble the acid water evenly over a large surface area?  

[dptubber]

From the previous posts, looks like I'm not the only tubber with a less than perfect water source.  Thanks for sharing your experiences btw.

I purchased a calcium tester today and it reads at 300.  Yeah!, I think thats good.

Overnite though, my TA dropped to 60, with PH to 8.0.  I started my pumps this evening and its foaming.  I added 3 tablespoons of baking soda and tested again after 15 minutes of pumps running and the TA is at 90 and PH to 8.2.  

I will test again tomorrow to see if its still foaming and to see if the TA & PH remain the same.  If the readings remain the same, should I still try to Increase TA to 120 and decrease PH to 7.6 or just leave it alone for a week or so?

[badval]

If your pH is at 8.0 why would you add baking soda?  That's going to make it go higher & you're trying to get it lower.  I'd worry more about getting the pH in the right range - you might find it holds at 7.x with only small adjustments needed every week to keep it there.  If you're adding pH Down one day & then throwing in baking soda the next this doesn't make sense.  I wouldn't add anymore water unless you drain & try again from scratch.  you need to get what you have in the tub correct first & you're not going to do that by continually dumping in chems & then adding very high alk water.  

You didn't say what your load & usage has been, but 2 tsp cl / 300 gals sounds a little high for a daily dose.  Are your residual levels climbing or staying the same?  I like to always have at  least 4-5+ ppm Cl & 2 tsp does that for me w/ 500 gal.  You may not want your residual level that high (most ppl don't) & might be able to use less.

If it were me, I'd just start over.  By now, you've added so much by the time you do get it right, you're never going to know how you did it & aren't going to be able to repeat it.

I'd fill the tub, add 1 tbsp dichlor, 1/2 bottle of Metal Gone & let the pumps run 1/2 hr or so.  Do this in the afternoon & then don't mess with it until the next morning.  Just let it be.  Now test cl & pH.  Get those right over the next 48 hrs adding acids slowly like you did, & then waiting to retest at least 4 hrs after adjusting.  Then go from there adjusting Ca & TA last.  If your pH is where you want it & relatively stable, I wouldn't stress about TA.  Let it stay on the low side if need be - you'll just need to check pH frequently to make sure you're not dropping below 7.0.  This way you'll know you need X amount of acid/pH Down for ~300 gal & can do the math for adding small amounts of water later on.

Lastly, make everyone shower before using the tub & wear a swimsuit that has been run thru the washer w/ no detergent.  No hair conditioners, no deodorants, no makeup, etc.  You want to rule out any foreign sources of contamination while you're getting this right.

[Joel T]

Never, ever, wear any clothing in your hottub.  

[anne]

If your pH is at 8.0 why would you add baking soda?  That's going to make it go higher & you're trying to get it lower.  I'd worry more about getting the pH in the right range - you might find it holds at 7.x with only small adjustments needed every week to keep it there.

I'd fill the tub, add 1 tbsp dichlor, 1/2 bottle of Metal Gone & let the pumps run 1/2 hr or so.  Do this in the afternoon & then don't mess with it until the next morning.  Just let it be.  Now test cl & pH.  Get those right over the next 48 hrs adding acids slowly like you did, & then waiting to retest at least 4 hrs after adjusting.  Then go from there adjusting Ca & TA last.  

I'm sure as with everything else in life that there are different ways to approach the same problems, but the general consensus here seems to be to adjust the TA first, THEN pH. Some people seem to take this more seriously than others, but it does make sense to me that any pH is going to be hard to control unless the TA is somewhat is line. I remember a truck and trailer analogy.........dont know who to credit.

DP- I am no expert, but I would have done the same as you: with your TA low and your pH already so high that baking soda was not goingot have a HUGE effect on it, I'd have added baking soda to get the TA more stable, then started with acid to drop the pH back down. I recently had similar water problems as you, and one thing I was advised is to not stress about getting the TA *too* high (maybe 90-100 is perfectly fine, and 120 is not necessary) but 60 is probably not quite good enough.

My advice is pretty much based on what I have absorbed here for the last few months, so by no means is fact- only opinion.

[dptubber]

Anne...thanks for your reply and I'm glad you can relate.

It can be fustrating when both PH & TA are high and after using PH Down, the TA had decreased at a faster rate than the PH.  So in my mind, if I decrease PH to ~7.6 my TA will be real low.  I've read that Baking Soda (I think from your post) has less of an impact on PH so if I use Baking Soda on my Low TA, it should rise with little effect on the PH.

I did try to raise the TA with baking soda probably prematurely, while my PH was still relatively high.  I did this because my tub started foaming when my TA reached 60, coincidence?  I don't know!  I used baking soda to raise the TA to verify.  Was only a test!

I realize that I may have to dump my water, but I was going to anyway in couple of weeks. (1 month dump rule).  I just want to get the theory correct on how to adjust High PH & TA when using 1 chemical that affects the TA faster than the PH.
 
BTW....I completely understand the soap in bathing suit issue.  For that reason and because I have the privacy, my tub has not seen a bathing suit yet.  Also no gels, creams, etc.
 
I will attempt again to hit my PH target (or slightly lower) and then raise the TA back up with baking Soda?  If there is a better way to accomplish the balancing act, other than what Anne or myself have indicated please let us know.

badval...thanks for reply also.  I think you may be looking at my post & joel t's post when responding to my questions.  I actually have not indicated how much dichor I'm using on reg basis and I think my calcium is in check.  I use 1 teaspoon after soak.

Thanks for being patient with me.  Even though I'm struggling a little, I'm not stressed because the soaks are still great.

[wmccall]

One tip, don't shoot for a specific ph value, PH has an acceptable range, 7.8 is acceptable if your alk is on the low side.