Why not 2-speed pumps?

[Brewman]

Exactly what I'm saying.  On the Optima, the low speed of the one 2 speed pump isn't that great for massage.  For the Optima.  Other spas that have multiple speed pumps might be different.  
 The 2 speed pump isn't there for massage, it for filtering.  Otherwise the second large pump, which is ONLY one speed, would be two speed as well.  And that second pump controls half the jets in the spa, including the massive therapy throne seat and all the foot jets.

The original posters asked about the Optima no longer having one of the 2 big pumps be two speed- they are not because they changed the filtering.  You won't miss a thing with the two single speed pumps- you can get a gentle massage.  
 

[Reese]

With all due respect to the Optima experts and ndabunka, the original question wasn't about whether it was neeed for filtration, or the quality of therapy.  It was about low-speed, low-noise, gentle massage, and why a manufacturer would not include 2 speed pumps.  It appears clear that Optima users feel it isn't necessary because they either prefer theraputic pressures or are satisfied with the control that adjustable jets and diverters provide, while most of the rest that have them think they are a great thing.   The obvious reason that Sundance didn't include them is that most buyers of an Optima don't care, and there is no reason to add extra cost.  I think pg_rider and patty got the answers they were looking for.  It is also clear that neither the Optima, or the two-speed camp, are going to convince the other by restating the same positions.  Can we move on?

[DPS]

Some 2 speed pumps are extremely reliable.  I have customers with 20 year old 2-speed pumps that are still working fine.  56 frame motors tend to be higher quality and longer lasting than the 48 frame motors used in most spas (higher quality bearings, runs cooler, lasts longer).
2-speed pumps cost more and the controls are more expensive to run them.  Rather than on / off you need low / high / off controls.  You can't replace the single speed pump in your existing spa with a 2-speed because the controls are just on / off.
If your spa doesn't have 2-speed pumps it is because the manufacturer didn't think you needed to be able to choose low speed, and didn't want to spend the extra money to give you that choice.

[pg_rider]

How do you tell how many frames your pumps are?  Are Sundance Optima pumps 48 frame?

[DPS]

The identification sticker on the pump will show the frame (probably abbreviated FR).
The 48 frame motors are slightly smaller diameter than 56 frame motors and have inferior bearings to those in 56 frame motors.  Often, the other components in the motors are also top quality in 56 frame and not so much in 48 frame.
I am not sure which Sundance is using these days, there are plenty of people on the forum that can tell you.  In 2001 when I had Sundance spas in the store they were all 48 frame.

[Altazi]

Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.

Tanstaafl

  easy to do once tub is out of warranty

Lets see                  2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
                              2  DC motors for above
                              1  weatherproof control panels


                                                                            $10,000

When would you like me to start

I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors?  Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?

Regards,

Altazi

[SerjicalStrike]

How do you tell how many frames your pumps are?  Are Sundance Optima pumps 48 frame?

They are 56 frame now.

[tanstaafl2]

You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that.  My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed.  There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).

I completely agree.  Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.

And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.

And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.

It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.

[patty]

...I think pg_rider and patty got the answers they were looking for.  It is also clear that neither the Optima, or the two-speed camp, are going to convince the other by restating the same positions.  Can we move on?

yup, i'm good on this one!   I think we'll be fine using a combination of diverter valve and adjusting indivudual jet flow.    

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.

Tanstaafl

  easy to do once tub is out of warranty

Lets see                  2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
                              2  DC motors for above
                              1  weatherproof control panels


                                                                            $10,000

When would you like me to start

I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors?  Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?

Regards,

Altazi

naaaaaaaaaaaa, you can do it with AC motors much cheaper. All you need is a contraption to adjust the hertz (I can't remember what it's called). I've got two machines here with them and I can literally adjust the motor speed by a couple of RPM's. One big problem though, as the motor's RPM's are reduced, the motor runs hotter. So you need to come up with some added cooling measures. Not a big deal, I would think you could rig up some type of water cooling system using the spa water. We just run an air hose from the compressor into the motor

[ndabunka]

You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that.  My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed.  There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).

I completely agree.  Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.

And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.

And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.

It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.

Thank you for proving my point..Price.  You can get "isolated umps in every seat" but you have to "pay for it".  If I remember the threads correctly, you paid about $4,500 more for your tub than I did.  To many of use, those dollars are better specnt elsewhere.  My diverters work just fine for us and provide everythign we need.  You want the luxury of pressing a button in each seat (even though most of those other seats aren't full and that feature is going unused 90% of the time).  Thanks OK as you value it.  My point was that for the MAJORITY of value-minded buyers (those spending under $6,500 for a nice sized, name brand tub, diverter's work "just fine".  My tub usually only has one (myself) or two people in it.  Only occasionally is the whole family in it.

[In Canada eh]

Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.

Tanstaafl

  easy to do once tub is out of warranty

Lets see                  2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
                              2  DC motors for above
                              1  weatherproof control panels


                                                                            $10,000

When would you like me to start

I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors?  Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?

Regards,

Altazi

naaaaaaaaaaaa, you can do it with AC motors much cheaper. All you need is a contraption to adjust the hertz (I can't remember what it's called). I've got two machines here with them and I can literally adjust the motor speed by a couple of RPM's. One big problem though, as the motor's RPM's are reduced, the motor runs hotter. So you need to come up with some added cooling measures. Not a big deal, I would think you could rig up some type of water cooling system using the spa water. We just run an air hose from the compressor into the motor

OH NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Doc,

   Are we talking about redesigning a spa and trying to take on the evil empire here

[windsurfdog]

Here's another one where we can all agree to disagree.  It looks like those that have the option of 2 speed pumps like having the option available and take advantage of it where those that do not have the option feel it is superfluous.  I guess it's up to each to decide.  Certainly we can throw it into the non-deal breaker category along with FF/TP, etc. etc...

[tanstaafl2]

You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that.  My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed.  There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).

I completely agree.  Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.

And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.

And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.

It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.

Thank you for proving my point..Price.  You can get "isolated umps in every seat" but you have to "pay for it".  If I remember the threads correctly, you paid about $4,500 more for your tub than I did.  To many of use, those dollars are better specnt elsewhere.  My diverters work just fine for us and provide everythign we need.  You want the luxury of pressing a button in each seat (even though most of those other seats aren't full and that feature is going unused 90% of the time).  Thanks OK as you value it.  My point was that for the MAJORITY of value-minded buyers (those spending under $6,500 for a nice sized, name brand tub, diverter's work "just fine".  My tub usually only has one (myself) or two people in it.  Only occasionally is the whole family in it.

And I certainly agree. If price is a big concern, and I can certainly understand that it can be for many people, then you don't need to have 2 speed pumps. Or stereo's or TV's or LED lights or any number of "extra's" that some spas can offer.

Price was a concern for me as well, but it also was balanced by how I wanted to use the tub and what I valued in paying more for. I wanted a fairly large tub and that usually costs more for a good quality tub. I suspect that it is unlikely that someone could get a tub of a similar size as mine for half the cost and still get a good quality name brand tub. But you can certainly get a smaller tub of good quality for less than mine. I just happened to place a high value on it being of good size. We all have to make those choices. I opted not to get a stereo for instance. Others value the stereo and choose to pay for it.

But if one does choose to get a higher end, higher cost spa it would seem reasonable to expect an increase in convenience and flexibility. Multi speed pumps can be one element that provides that and will be one of the determining factors I will look at in the future should I again be in the market for a spa, or offering a recommendation to others, and choose to go with a more expensive model.

I would regard the Sundance Optima as a "higher end, higher cost" tub. As such it has many positive features. The lack of multispeed pumps is a check mark in the negative column (for me, at least) and would be a significant component in a decision to buy a tub. Clearly it is not an issue for other owners of the Optima and that is fine, too.

What the cut off is for "higher end, higher cost" is of course an entirely separate discussion!  

[tony]

I have a two speed pump on my Optima and yes, it is nice to have the low speed on if you do not want therapy and just want some water moving.  The new Optimas get the same (or even better) result with the new high flow pump which can be diverted through the waterfall feature if you like.  I beleive the new circ pump moves more water than the old two speed pump on low.  All the jets in both the newer and older style Optimas can be infinitely adjustable for whatever therapy you desire.