Changing Water

[In Canada eh]

By the way, Vinny is obviously one of the good guys, a consumer helping others.  He just doesn't have any reason to defend a proprietary system based on (IMO) marginal science.  I'm guessing he is just frustrated because everybody wants a hassle free maintenance system that uses little or no chlorine, but then complains when it doesn't work, or dealers add their own wrinkles to address problems their customers encounter and it becomes confusing.  IMO, Vinny is right, systems that rely more on oxidizers than sanitizers are risky.  If you want a consistent system, based on science, not marketing fluff, the "Vermonter" system everone talks about is the way to go.  Ask just about any consumer that has tried more than one approach, not somebody selling/defending the system they sell.  If confusion about maintenance is the only thing keeping your friends from buying a hot tub, steer them to rhtubs.com for the info.

Webini and Reese,

    Webini I don't mean to pick on your chemical maintenance routine but Vinny is one of the good guys on this site and has a very good understanding of hot tub water chems. He is concerned that the use of MPS as a primary treatment offers very little in the way of a daily sanitizer.


    Reese,

I thought your post was well thought out and accurate

[Amanda_Panda]

I agree that you can get ten different answers about water care and changing your water if you ask ten different people. I think that part of the reason why is because there sare so many variables. Not every spa professional asks all the right questions or is a studied as others about chemistry.
Some variables: gallons, number of people, how CLEAN the people are that are using the spa, how long it is used for, what chemical care has been happening, how long the filters go in between cleaning, how often the filters have been cleaned, what kind of sanitizing system is being used, how well the people caring for the spa comunicate what is done to the water... the list goes on.
I would recommend keeping track of what you are doing to the water and if numerous people are caring for the chemicals... have some kind of clipboard to let each other know what has been done. This will also help your spa professional know hwat has been happening with your spa by giving them a good guideline of the chemical/usage history when you bring in a water sample.
How often do you change your water? Good question. It depends on many of these variable factors. Some need to change it monthly, others 3 or 4 x's/year, and still others 1 time a year... it just depends.

[In Canada eh]

I would recommend keeping track of what you are doing to the water and if numerous people are caring for the chemicals... have some kind of clipboard to let each other know what has been done. This will also help your spa professional know hwat has been happening with your spa by giving them a good guideline of the chemical/usage history when you bring in a water sample.

Thats a good idea,

[Amanda_Panda]

Thats a good idea, [/quote]

Thanks!

[Bill_Stevenson]

This is a long thread and if I missed it, I am sorry to be repetitive.  If you go to the HotSpring website you can download a copy of their owner's manual.  It is probable that you could do this for any brand.  If you check the owner's manual for HS you will find that they recommend 4 month intervals for water changes in most cases.    

FWIW, I change my water every 2 months because it is easy to do and I like clean, fresh water.  It does not seem likely that water treatment intervals would be remarkably different for different brands of hot tubs.  As others have said, it is the people factor that determines these matters.

Regards,

Bill

[windsurfdog]

Well I would think that HS knows their own tubs.

It's not a question of whether HS or any other manufacturer knows their own tubs...it's a question of whether you know your own water characteristics out of the tap.  You have to know your water in order to maintain your water properly.  Generalizations can be made regarding water from a municipal utility  (though there are some differences there as well) but well water will stand on it's own from region to region.  Vermonter's regimen is an excellent starting point but cannot be strictly applied to every instance without a bit of tailoring.  And, certainly, there is more than 1 way to maintain fresh water...dichlor, bromine, baqua (<adding personal remark here> ugh!) for sanitizers; dichlor and MPS for shock (buffered and unbuffered MPS); minerals (copper, silver, N2, etc.) for sanitizer support, and ozone for sanitizer/shock support (depending on who you talk to).  These myriad of choices are what is so confusing.

Here are 4 rules that should apply generally:

Use the "rule of least" when adding chems to your water.  Use the least amount to maintain fresh water.  If you are using a product in a general, routine manner just because someone suggested it (weekly stain and scale products come to mind...I've never needed either--my water comes nicely balanced from a municipal water supply) then you may be adding to your water unnecessarily...and adding to TDS as well.

Like in horseshoes and hand gernades, close is good enough.  Don't let your mind be set on getting pH, TA, CH absolutely to a certain perfect level.  This would encourage over-care which drives you and the water crazy.

And, accompanying the above rule, don't worry about your water's balance more than weekly.  Be sure to monitor sanitizer more frequently but forget about pH, TA, CH measures except for once a week.

And KISS.  Find a routine that is simple.  Once again, I highly recommend Vermonter's regimen as a starting point.

PS:  Uh-oh...I guess I got off on the wrong question.  Like others, I recommend changing water every 3-4 months (I'm on a 4 month routine).  I'll leave the above water chem suggestions just in case someone can get something out of 'em...sorry.

[Webini]

Well I would think that HS knows their own tubs.

It's not a question of whether HS or any other manufacturer knows their own tubs...it's a question of whether you know your own water characteristics out of the tap.  You have to know your water in order to maintain your water properly.  Generalizations can be made regarding water from a municipal utility  (though there are some differences there as well) but well water will stand on it's own from region to region.  Vermonter's regimen is an excellent starting point but cannot be strictly applied to every instance without a bit of tailoring.  And, certainly, there is more than 1 way to maintain fresh water...dichlor, bromine, baqua (<adding personal remark here> ugh!) for sanitizers; dichlor and MPS for shock (buffered and unbuffered MPS); minerals (copper, silver, N2, etc.) for sanitizer support, and ozone for sanitizer/shock support (depending on who you talk to).  These myriad of choices are what is so confusing.

Here are 4 rules that should apply generally:

Use the "rule of least" when adding chems to your water.  Use the least amount to maintain fresh water.  If you are using a product in a general, routine manner just because someone suggested it (weekly stain and scale products come to mind...I've never needed either--my water comes nicely balanced from a municipal water supply) then you may be adding to your water unnecessarily...and adding to TDS as well.

Like in horseshoes and hand gernades, close is good enough.  Don't let your mind be set on getting pH, TA, CH absolutely to a certain perfect level.  This would encourage over-care which drives you and the water crazy.

And, accompanying the above rule, don't worry about your water's balance more than weekly.  Be sure to monitor sanitizer more frequently but forget about pH, TA, CH measures except for once a week.

And KISS.  Find a routine that is simple.  Once again, I highly recommend Vermonter's regimen as a starting point.

A very good post - thank you!

[Vinny]

By the way, Vinny is obviously one of the good guys, a consumer helping others.  He just doesn't have any reason to defend a proprietary system based on (IMO) marginal science.  I'm guessing he is just frustrated because everybody wants a hassle free maintenance system that uses little or no chlorine, but then complains when it doesn't work, or dealers add their own wrinkles to address problems their customers encounter and it becomes confusing.  IMO, Vinny is right, systems that rely more on oxidizers than sanitizers are risky.  If you want a consistent system, based on science, not marketing fluff, the "Vermonter" system everone talks about is the way to go.  Ask just about any consumer that has tried more than one approach, not somebody selling/defending the system they sell.  If confusion about maintenance is the only thing keeping your friends from buying a hot tub, steer them to rhtubs.com for the info.

Webini and Reese,

    Webini I don't mean to pick on your chemical maintenance routine but Vinny is one of the good guys on this site and has a very good understanding of hot tub water chems. He is concerned that the use of MPS as a primary treatment offers very little in the way of a daily sanitizer.


    Reese,

I thought your post was well thought out and accurate

Thanks Guys!

I do get fustrated because I can't believe that some manufacturers (HS isn't alone) will market a product that isn't proven to kill bacteria, it is proven to raise their profit level though. D1 uses a $125 N2 cartridge.

When I first got my pool I went to "pool school" to learn as much as I could about the operation ... it turned out to be a commercial for Baqua Products. I could have gotten a deal that night for $250 for the season on my Baqua products but I bought chlorine instead at Leslies for $60 for the season. I ALWAYS question what motives people have to sell a product - what I've found is some people are very honest and some only look out for their pockets. I'm a service tech in the medical industry and have heard a lot of sales presentations that were just fluff.

I try to think of both my pool and spa waters in terms of drinking water quality and that's where my geekiness comes in! I was on Doc's site as a lurker when Vermonter would post a lot there and found what he says very informative and science based, I like scientific explanations. Quite honestly, I put in a cup of dichlor before starting up my spa just in case the water from Artesian was gross. I have read too many stories of rashes and other illnesses that can happen, so I may go a little overboard.

Yes, I do screw up occasionally and hopefully I do learn from my mistakes, foaming was my hardest lesson so far - LOL. I have soaked in cloudy water after hitting the tub with chlorine with no rashes. I have also had both my boys get ear infections at the same time after dunking their heads under water ... I then realized that Vermonter's method is great for soaking but has limitations as well - although I still use it and it works well for me.

Vinny

[Reese]

 I have also had both my boys get ear infections at the same time after dunking their heads under water ... I then realized that Vermonter's method is great for soaking but has limitations as well - although I still use it and it works well for me.

Vinny, you bring up a point that I think merits further discussion.  I think the Vermonter program works well for keeping a tub clean between uses, but may not be adequate for parties or non-routine use.  As you said in another post, bacteria can multiply rapidly in hot water, and if you start at or near 0 chlorine, there is nothing to prevent that exponential growth until you are done using and treat the water.

When someone other than my wife and I are going to be using my tub, especially kids, I depart from the Vermonter regimine.  I add enough chlorine to establish a 3ppm residual an hour or two before use, or if there isn't time, a MPS dose to free up what chlorine is in there, in hopes of preventing new flora from being introduced to the tub, and/or bugs moving from one user to another.  During parties, I also try to add some dichlor during a lull in use, or at least some MPS every few hours.

[Vinny]

My routine has been to put 1 teaspoon per person, up to 3 (1 teaspoon = 1.5 PPM in my tub), in the tub after use and 1 teaspoon every other day. I am now running my ozonator 24/7 in hopes that it will keep the tub clearer longer than the 8 hours a day it was running and am trying to prolong my time that I have to put chlorine in. I know that a Del UV or CD ozonator isn't the best out there as far as producing ozone so this also may be the problem but I do plan on putting a Prozone PZ1 ozonator in the tub when the warranty expires - it supposedly puts out a heck of a lot more than a Del ... this is not what you're discussing but may have some impact on the bacteria in the tub.

Anyway, I too will put dichlor in before and during a party (3 PPM each) with a shock dose (6 PPM or more) after. I usually have it pre measured so all I have to do is to walk by, turn on the jets and dump it in; usually when people are out of the tub and eating. I haven't had too many parties though and the first time it was a mess!

As far as my boys and their friends - the rule is no dunking heads and no water in the mouth. I am lucky that both my boys have listened to me in the past and their friend usually listen. The pool is a different story as I always have at least 1 PPM (usually 3 - 5 PPM depending on the CYA in the pool) and consider it bacteria and Algea free. For some reason my tub seems to hold chlorine a little longer than other people (something I can't explain) and I sometimes have a chlorine residue (>0.5 PPM) 24 hours later even with using 1.5 PPM. My sons and their friends are probably soaking in some chlorine although not a lot, then I dose with up to 3 teaspoons and sanitize the tub.

I think if your starting out with a clean tub, you can get by with less time before (or a lower dose a couple of hours before then a higher dose). I have posted this before and actually got it from Vermonter that to get a 99% kill you need a total of 2500 of Contact Time (CT= PPM chlorine x time in minutes) but I believe that's for a heavily infected tub.

What I truely believe in is to measure the residue of the dose put in after 8 hours or overnight and if you still have chlorine residue you have disinfected the tub to a sufficient point, chlorine will be used up if there's stuff to be used up on. If not hit it with another dose of equal or more chlorine (remembering that bacteria doubles every 20 minutes) and make it as sanitized as possible. In the 1 year of ownership I have only had that happen 3 times and the second dose took care of whatever was in the tub. This is where I came up with my dose of 1.5 PPM per person and a max of 4.5 PPM if all 4 of us go in.

[Reese]

I do plan on putting a Prozone PZ1 ozonator in the tub when the warranty expires - it supposedly puts out a heck of a lot more than a Del ... this is not what you're discussing but may have some impact on the bacteria in the tub.

You and I seem to be on the same page on a lot of issues, so this statement surprised me.  If you take a look back at the Vermonter posts on ozone, you'll see a much better explanation than I can provide that ozone is unlikely to supplement sanitation in a hot tub application, regardless of the output of the unit.  I know that there are lots of testimonials by people with years of experience that it helps with water care, but there is little scientific evidence to back that up.  If anything ozone probably helps with oxidation, but at levels so low that it is unlikely to reduce sanitizer demand.  I find it hard to believe that if ozone did have measurable results, manufacturers wouldn't study and publish them.

IMO, since you already have it, it is fine to use it (and given ozone's limitations in a hot-tub application, 24/7 is probably a better way to go than 8 hours/day), but before spending money on upgrading your ozone unit, I'd give N2/Frog another try if you want to supplement your dichlor regimen, despite your previous experience and lack of results.  At least there is some science to back up silver's ability to suppress bacteria growth, and it is likely that it helps chlorine kill more effectively/efficiently.

[Vinny]

The only reason that I would buy a better ozone unit is to see if it indeed does do anything to the water. I already know mine does very little but based on what I've found the Del units put out very little ozone as well. Vermonter does not believe that ozone does much but he does use it in his tub. I agree, after doing my research on ozone I have not found any hard evidence that spa ozone does anything but people here with more knowledge than myself seem to say it does - I really am fence sitting until I can prove or disprove what it does in my tub

I have given the N2 idea a little more thought and I have finally been able to go more than 1 1/2 months during a water change. During my N2 use, I was putting 3 PPM dichlor after I soaked and I got the same results as without. I've been thinking about trying N2 again to see if maybe it was my water at the time.

The only thing I am looking for is for my water to last longer between soaks. While running my ozonator 8 hours a day I needed to put dichlor in every other day, it seems that now I can get by with every 2 days... but I haven't soaked too much during the summer.

[Reese]

I know that all the respected voices here saying it does something are hard to ignore.  I just wish they had some measurables to disprove the scientific issues.  Until then, since my water does just fine without it, I'll stay in the skeptic column.

Perhaps when you get ready to upgrade, you should look into the Thermospas ozone system.  The other thread on Thermo got me curious, so I went to their website to look around and saw that their system, complete with mixing chamber and charcoal canister to control offgassing allows you to reduce chemicals by 90%!

[Vinny]

I know that all the respected voices here saying it does something are hard to ignore.  I just wish they had some measurables to disprove the scientific issues.  Until then, since my water does just fine without it, I'll stay in the skeptic column.

Perhaps when you get ready to upgrade, you should look into the Thermospas ozone system.  The other thread on Thermo got me curious, so I went to their website to look around and saw that their system, complete with mixing chamber and charcoal canister to control offgassing allows you to reduce chemicals by 90%!

Actually Artesian sells a mixing chamber and it was very expensive in comparison to what ozone may actually do. Del sells a mixing chamber/degassing chamber that goes for about $150 and it uses an activated charcoal canister as the the degassing media but you need to replace it once a year ... BUT I'M CHEAP! Actually if something were to work I'm not that cheap. The PZ1 unit can be bought for about $90 and I can get a single N2 cartridge on ebay for about $20.00, these are priced about what I would spend on an experiment.

What you say about ozone, I feel that way about both ozone and N2. Although there is evidence that both will work outside of the tub, I'm not too sure either does inside the tub - no proof. The only proof is that people claim that it does work ... not too scientific. I would feel better if a test can be done to see if ozone or silver ions are present ... Vermonter has all this lab equipment at his disposal.

I also believe that what works on your tub might not work on mine to the water makeup. I used to be - they don't work PERIOD but I am softening a bit as maybe they don't work in my tub. I've tried 2 different brands of weekly enzymes to help with the load and they foamed on me; you see results with N2 and I didn't see anything; there's a person on here that followed what I did and it didn't work for him; I have had chlorine lock in my tub but yet others use their tub as little as I do and they didn't have a problem and Drewstar can have a clear tub for a week and I can't - these all have to be due to the composition of the water.

[Reese]

I'm pretty sure from previous posts that Vermonter has already tested ozone and N2 to the best his instruments can, at least with as much time he can justify on curiousity about his hobby.  I think he also has done some in-tub tests of various routines.  I believe that was the basis for his famous (on internet spa forums) dichlor routine.  If I recall correctly, he found that dichlor was effective at controlling bacteria, silver was measurable and slowed bacteria down but didn't control it, and ozone in the tub was not measurable and had little effect on bacteria growth (in the tub).

As for people's different experiences, water make-up is only one of many variables.  For example, use by one adult may result in a different bacteria load and amount of oxidizable material than a parent and two teenagers.  Somebody who says they use their tub 3X week, may in fact only rarely get in more than twice -- 33% less use.  One person may call a rounded teaspoon 1 tsp, while another may level theirs.  As you know, the same chlorine dose at 7.2 pH is much more effective than one in a 7.8 pH tub.  The amount of CC, TDS and CYA in the water may affect the way the chemicals work, as may application order/timing.  What one person calls good water may be another's cloudy/foamy, etc.  That is what makes anecdotal information hard to make sense of. :-/  I'll take Vermonter's info over that.