Full foam efficiency observation

[NJDave]

Hi Hottubman,
Thanks, for bringing up a great point. Let me first say, we don't have local Arctic Dealers in my market, but I did look at them closely at the Atlantic City  Pool and Spa Show, back in January. If anyone was actually  going to do TP correctly or as close to it, it would probably be Artic. They really do have a thick layer of sprayed foamed applied to each and every cabinet panel. There are gaps are every seam,which will let some cold air in, so the panels can be removed easily, but in general, it is a very well insulated panel. Then they do heavily insulate the shell also, most TP companies really skimp there, by applying little or no insualtion, to their shell. Artic does apply a thick spray coat on the shell, completely covering, protecting and supporting the plumbing. Lets face it, There is more insulation in a Arctic Spa, than there is trap air space. They are closer to a FF company then they are TP. LA Spas is another fine example. A great brand also. They foam their spa almost entirely, leaving only about a 2" space between the cabinet and foam, allowing for ease of cabinet removal, but really they are a FF company. Getting back to your point about equipment area freezing, both TP and FF Spas are equally at risk to freeze up in the equipment area, should their be a power failure or GFCI Breaker trip. Most TP companies use only a foil or styro foam panel attached to their eqipment door, to insulate, which will do little or nothing, more than a uninsulated resin panel on a FF Spa. But, freeze ups in the equipmewnt areas are almost always minor fixes, usually the heater union or pump union will split from ice pressure, leaving the eqipment free of damage, not always, but in most cases. FF Spas and better protected TP Spas with lots of insulation protecting the plumbing, will save the customers $100's -1000's of dollars in repairs plumbing, pipe and manifold and jet repairs. As a tech I don't put companies like Arctic or Coleman, in with companies like Thermo Spas or Hydro Spas, that do TP in its worst way,who put a 1/8" spray coat on their shell, leaving their plumbing completely exposed, only counting on heat from the motors and foil or insulation on the panels. Most of the companies doing TP, are doing it in a economical way to save money in manufacturing and are doing no justice for the consumer, in colder climates. They do it wrong. While as pointed out by hottubman, there are companies making doing a better job in TP, Arctic and Coleman . Sorry, if I got a little carried away on my original post, but I have fixed 100's of frozen spas and the majority were poorly insulated abd never had a chance. So, you see how this topic really gets under my skin. Hey winter is almost over. 27 degrees today, but they say next week it will be 64 . Can't wait. Dave.

[NJDave]

Vinny,
Yes , you are correct. Your Artesian Grand Cayman, has tubing connecting from the circ pump, that pumps warm water through your three main pumps, always keeping your pumps protected and warm. You also have that blowout for 2 minutes at the start of each cycle, every 12 hours. You also have freeze protection built in to the electronics, that if the water temp drops below 50 degrees, all pumps will circulate. Moving water will not freeze. The numbers for temperature loss in your spa posted were excellent, with your water temperatures staying in the 80's after 48 hours, with the heater turned off. Great Spa and Great Post. Hopefully, you are now refilling your tub and have gotten rid of the soap suds. Enjoy it tonight. Dave.

[bosco0633]

Tman, I dont hate you, but I am so tired of hearing you chime in to always inform us that arctic has crappy sales people and the study is a lie.  Your opinion is valid, and I appreciate it, but ask anyone here, every time arctic is mentioned, you always let us know that arctic has shady sales tactics and lie about their heating costs.

Not fighting, just defending happy owners of this line.  I am not suggesting you hate the product nor would I put words in your mouth.  

I am finished arguing about this topic, so I will not mention any of this again, I promise.  So here is to new beginings due to frustration of the same old debate.  

I will stick to my convictions, just as much as you or anyone else here.  I stand behind the product that I purchased, I am a satisfied owner and believe my tub to be a COMPETITIVE PRODUCT, no more superior than any other tub just COMPETITIVE.  

So Tman, please dont feel hate put your tounge back in your mouth, and lets put this to sleep.  


Moms the word

[dadofrad]

Okay being in northern Minnesota we come across this broblem with ff. or not  the colman dealer 1 hour away says his is the best. But when you a colman cooler is it not full foam. the walls of that cooler are not 1/2 foamed. And also would you want moer insulation in your house or would you want less . I can tell you that every contractor will tell you to add more not less. Call your local power company and ask them is more better than less.  

[Tman122]

Good enough Bosco. But you also should point out the lies if someone comes on here and asks about the 90% reduction in chemical usage because of the Arctic ozone. This and a number of other plain and simple untruths that people have been told at the local Arctic store.  We can not ignore these, we need to point them out so a potiential buyer has all the information to make an educated or semi educated purchase at the very least. Thats what these boards are for.

[bosco0633]

agreed, I will do this for every brand misconception, not just one in particular.

[tony]

I don't know if I really want to jump in on this but....here goes.

There was a time (and I heard it personally) when Arctic dealers were spewing out some stretched truths and using some shady salesmanship, rather than letting the product stand on its own merits.  The biggest problem was it seemed to be comming from the manufacturer.  It has all been pretty well covered on the forums.  They obviously make a fine product, have a nice following and have catapulted themselves into the upper group of spa manufacturers.  It seems they have moved beyond this and are headed in a new direction.

Arctic has come a long way since I purchased in 2002.  I wouldn't even consider them because the dealer that sold them (also a pool dealer) had a terrible reputation.  That dealer no longer sells Arctic and hasn't for a couple of years, though I heard the sales pitch at a home show from the new dealer in the area.

I attribute this all to growing pains.  I would imagine it is difficult to push your way into this business with all the big manufacturers there.  I give them credit.  I am so pro smaller business.  The spa seems to be doing well selling itself.  I think Arctic probably knows that now.    

[galen]

Well, if Tony is going to jump in then so am I.  I respect Tony's opinion. I'm new to all this.  I just bought a tub, doesn't matter which but I did a lot of research before I bought. My wife thinks I'm ate up. But in reality I don't like making mistakes.  Especially multi thousand dollar ones.  After all my research online, I went to a local homeshow. I want to tell you I never saw so much cutthroat sells unprofessionalism in my life. I came away not informed like I should have, but confused. Its really sad. There was only one dealer at the show that held himself above attacking others. I could see a lot of hard feelings in this industry. In the retail sells world, there are many different sells tactics.  I don't like the beating down of the comptetition. Let me decide. Just my .02 .

[stuart]

Well, if Tony is going to jump in then so am I.  I respect Tony's opinion. I'm new to all this.  I just bought a tub, doesn't matter which but I did a lot of research before I bought. My wife thinks I'm ate up. But in reality I don't like making mistakes.  Especially multi thousand dollar ones.  After all my research online, I went to a local homeshow. I want to tell you I never saw so much cutthroat sells unprofessionalism in my life. I came away not informed like I should have, but confused. Its really sad. There was only one dealer at the show that held himself above attacking others. I could see a lot of hard feelings in this industry. In the retail sells world, there are many different sells tactics.  I don't like the beating down of the comtetition. Let me decide. Just my .02 .

Unfortunately that is probably what we portray more often than not in this industry. There are several reasons for it though;

1. No real regulations on then industry for anything that matters.

2. Anyone and everyone can and does sell spas so the people that have made a conscience decision to make it a career are few and far between...Many started selling spas because they had the gift of manipulation and didn't really qualify for anything else.

3. Most people selling spas don't even own one.

4. The turnover for salespeople is around 60% so it's hard to find someone with any true longevity. There are more people emotionally attached to their paycheck than the quality of a brand....

Technology and innovation typically takes time, money and work. In our fast paced, money driven society that doesn't always fit the quest for the almighty buck and the spa industry is a breeding ground for people that don't have the desire to take the long road and pay the dues but would rather take the money and run.

Many companies spend a whole lot more resource on aggressive marketing and sales tactics than research and innovation.

Some like Master, ThermoSpa, Cal and Arctic dominate more in aggressive marketing than others while some like HotSpring, D1 and Marquis still dedicate as much or more towards product quality, industry knowledge and innovation as they do the sales and marketing. This creates a battleground as old as time...brute force (and in some cases, treachery) vs. the fine tuned weapon.

Look at how long as a nation we have been fighting wars in third world countries using the most technologically advanced weapons and highest ethics only to lose battle after battle to down and dirty guerrilla fighters hiding in caves with age old weapons.

We always gain ground yet with more casualties then we should have. If we weren’t concerned about innocent casualties like the other guys are we would dominate every battle.

It works the same for the spa industry….There are those that just don’t care what they have to say or do to sell a product they just sell it while others try for a more realistic and upfront approach only to lose the deal to a lie….

[galen]

Well put Stu.  A Sad state of affairs. G

[drewstar]

Why would we need to monitor all that. Why not pick two tubs in the same area with roughly the same useage and gallons and put them on a dedicated meter. We could compile the data over several months.

I'm sure if I offered an in-store chemical credit, I could find a Jacuzzi and a Coleman customer of mine that would participate in our study. It would be worth every penny to put end end to this debate....

Yup. That would be the most simple staright forward way of ansering your question.

However, I  am intrigued by the whole thing and want to understand what's going on and why.  

[Tom]

...Artic does apply a thick spray coat on the shell, completely covering, protecting and supporting the plumbing.

Perhaps Dave has Arctic confused with someone else.  We do NOT apply foam to the shell at all.

Our HeatLock Perimeter Insulation system has three inches of polyurethane foam around the inside of the cabinet and floor and an uninsulated shell, which permits heat transfer to and from the spa water through the shell.   The heavy reflex torsion hose does not need protection, and the plumbing is spot-foamed where necessary for support.

Tom
Arctic Spas

[Spatech_tuo]

The heavy reflex torsion hose does not need protection, and the plumbing is spot-foamed where necessary for support.

Tom
Arctic Spas

I'm curious. How is that hose any different from the flex hose used by Sundance, Hot Springs, Marquis, etc. or is "Heavy reflex torsion hose" simply a marketing term for the same hose the others use?

[Steve]

I was out of town this past week and shopped a local Arctic dealer for my dealer.

It was quoted that I would save 90% of my chemical costs with peak ozone. I ask any Arctic dealer here to provide data on this as the dealer I was speaking to had none...

They are using some form of heavy gauge flex that I haven't seen before. I'm still amazed that these connections are only glued and not clamped as well.

Steve

[NJDave]

Hi Graybeard,
Ooops, sorry my boo boo. I thought Arctic foamed their shells, til you brought it to my attention differently. After reading your post, I went back looking for a photo I took 2 months ago in the Arctic Booth, at the Atlantic City Pool and Spa Show and there you have it. Here is photo, so others can see what we are speaking about. Thanks again, for posting the correct info. Dave.