Full foam efficiency observation

[Vinny]

The recent thread of the FF vs TP debate made me experiment on my FF Artesian tub.

Since my water has a ton of foam (I give up!!), I plan on changing my water tonight due to the foam.

The temp was 102 F and I lowered the temp all the way (56 F) at 3:30 PM on Wed. I didn't open the cover until 6:30 AM this morning and the temp was 89 F (And still a lot of foam). In 40 hours my tub lost 13 F for about 0.3 F an hour.

My circ pump was running the whole time, ozonator for 5 hours every 12 and the outside temps were between 23 F and 36 F. Here in Jersey, it was rainy and sleeting so I don't think my tub saw any sunlight. It is somewhat shielded by the wind but wind does get to the tub.

I originally commented that I thought my tub's pretty efficient based on a electrical glitch  but this time I did it with a "scientific method". And now I know it's efficient.

I know this'll probably open up another can of worms!

[Snyper]

In a fit of ignorance on my part, I had shut down power to my hot tub a few weeks ago to do some service work.

I go out to get a nice soak and the temp reads 99 degrees (Usually keep it at 103). Perplexed at first, then I realized I forgot to restore power!

I am IMPRESSED. The tub only lost 4 degrees in 48 hours. Outside temps were 9 degrees overnight and 28 -30 during the days.

No wonder Marquis is so highly rated!

[drewstar]

For those not up on Artesian spas, they are Full Foamed.


There is no doubt in my mind that if you cut the power to a FF tub and a TP Tub that water will retain heat longer in the FF tub.   I'm curious if anyone has claimed that a TP tub's water would hold it's temp longer than FF under a power outage?

The argument is that TP keeps the pumps warmer in case of a power outage  and is better protection from PUMP freezing.

The other key issue odf debate is TP is more effeicient since it Reclaims the heat given off by the pump motors. However, a FF tub retains water temp in the shell better. IMO

[Snyper]

Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.

We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.

No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?

[drewstar]

Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.

We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.

No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?

Synp,

We are going to confuse folks talking about Full Foam insulation and a tub full of foam in the same topic .  

I too battle foam.  Mostly it's from visitors who insist on wearing a suit.  When it's just me and the wife au natural, the tub is pretty good.

I have tried foam down, but found it clouds up the water.  Some folks say rather than pour the foam down into the tub, they use a spray bottle  and spray a minimal amount of FD on the foam, minimmizing the amout of FD used and in therory less cloudy results.  I've yet to try this and may give it a whirl the next time I have a problem.


I'd like to hear from others how they tackle the foam issue.


I found if I balance the water to a "T" and then add clarifier (which cause a BOATLOAD of foaming) scoop out the foam  and let it go for a day, it's usually back pretty good.  But I think there has to be a better way?

[Tman122]

There is no question that a FF tub will retain vessel water temp better because it has more insulation on it. The argument is the plumbing in the equipment area will freeze even if the vessel looses very little as this area is not insulated and is exposed to outside temps. But in a TP tub assuming the equipment area is insulated like the rest of the side walls the vessel warmth will radiate into the air space between vessel and side wall keeping the plumbing warmer. This will however draw warmth from the vessel and it will logicly loose temp in the vessel quicker but this will also prevent freeze damage to plumbing for a longer period of time than the FF design. Most freeze repairs I see are in the equipment area first then up into foam if left to freeze for a longer period.

Both methods of insulation have upsides and downsides. If a TP type tub is not insulated properly or is vented to the outside, during a power down situation it will loose heat faster and freeze as quick if not quicker than a FF designed tub. If a FF tub becomes powered down during extreme cold the vented equipment area will freeze quickly while the vessel and jet lines will last a long time.

The reclaiming heat from motor usage thing is great if your tub runs all day or most of the day but this effects pump longevity. But why not use it when you can during filtration 4-8 hrs a day. A small circulation pump for heating and water circulation is the most energy effiecient method in my opinion with a trade off for possible freeze damage, but this can be overcome very easiely with a light bulb. If it can't be a combination of the 2 styles of insulation done right.

A combination will give you extended vessel heat retention yet allow some heat transfer to air space during power down situations to protect plumbing. And allow heat transfer back to the vessel or an increased R-Factor at the minumum, during filtration.

[bosco0633]

I am going to do this just to prove you wrong yet again drewster.  I understand your point and your feelings about this age long debate, but, I am going to finally be able to say that you are right or wrong.  If, and only if, I am relative to the temps that have been listed here, I dont want to hear you slam arctic spas because of the FF TP debate anymore.  Deal???


Also, to add, the two coldest months of the year this year, Dec. and Jan.  average temp from the weather network was -6 in December and -9 in January, not including windchill.  

So with TP, my bill went up 17.00 canadian from last year.  That includes the cost of hydro going up. last year I never owned a tub

So for average running in cold climate I would strongly suggest to you that TP is EQUAL TO FF not saying better or claiming to say better.

My TP tub is hollow in the cabinet but remember, the it is foamed all the way around to create a seal.  

So in 48 hours, I will let you know my results and that should settle it.  Cold canadian climate I will give you the temperatures here and all that other good stuff.

[Snyper]

Synp,

We are going to confuse folks talking about Full Foam insulation and a tub full of foam in the same topic .  

I too battle foam.  Mostly it's from visitors who insist on wearing a suit.  When it's just me and the wife au natural, the tub is pretty good.

I have tried foam down, but found it clouds up the water.  Some folks say rather than pour the foam down into the tub, they use a spray bottle  and spray a minimal amount of FD on the foam, minimmizing the amout of FD used and in therory less cloudy results.  I've yet to try this and may give it a whirl the next time I have a problem.


I'd like to hear from others how they tackle the foam issue.


I found if I balance the water to a "T" and then add clarifier (which cause a BOATLOAD of foaming) scoop out the foam  and let it go for a day, it's usually back pretty good.  But I think there has to be a better way?

Good advice. One thing I do is run the jets at top speed and then get the leaf blower and blow all the foam off the surface. Works like a charm.

Sorry for taking the direction of this thread to the South!

[drewstar]

I am going to do this just to prove you wrong yet again drewster.  I understand your point and your feelings about this age long debate, but, I am going to finally be able to say that you are right or wrong.  If, and only if, I am relative to the temps that have been listed here, I dont want to hear you slam arctic spas because of the FF TP debate anymore.  Deal???


Also, to add, the two coldest months of the year this year, Dec. and Jan.  average temp from the weather network was -6 in December and -9 in January, not including windchill.  

So with TP, my bill went up 17.00 canadian from last year.  That includes the cost of hydro going up. last year I never owned a tub

So for average running in cold climate I would strongly suggest to you that TP is EQUAL TO FF not saying better or claiming to say better.

My TP tub is hollow in the cabinet but remember, the it is foamed all the way around to create a seal.  

So in 48 hours, I will let you know my results and that should settle it.  Cold canadian climate I will give you the temperatures here and all that other good stuff.

Bosco.

I have NEVER slamed Artic.   Absolutey not. In fact,  Just the opposite.   I will assume you have me confused with someone else.  Or you are just a bit paranoid.

I have struggled with the costs and benifits of each method and if you can come up with some decent data points I am for that.   Bring some data and or observations, I would love to talk semi intelligently about it.    

B ut shut me down?  ok..... yet again?  WTF ?
 

[drewstar]

Good advice. One thing I do is run the jets at top speed and then get the leaf blower and blow all the foam off the surface. Works like a charm.

Sorry for taking the direction of this thread to the South!

I tired this the other day.

My wife thought I was nuts.  It's 10 degress outside and I've got the leaf blower over the hot tub.  It worked ok for me.  

 I have leared to super dose the clarifier on windy days and just leave the top off for a bit.
(Stand up wind)

[East_TX_Spa]

I don't recall drewstar ever slamming Arctic or any other brand.  He plays it pretty much middle of the road in my observations.

Terminator

[Vinny]

Here's another thing to think about ... for 11 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds my three therapy pumps are sitting in an uninsulated cavity getting cold. For 30 seconds every 12 hours my tub blows this cold water and air into the insulated vessel to clear the lines ... BRRR!!

So if my tub lost power and it came on before the 2 inch pipes froze solid, the tub will do this every 12 hours. Actually if it triggered the freeze protection then my pumps will operate once an hour until frozen solid.

[drewstar]

I bet Boso one shiney new Fargo cap (complete with furry ear flaps, which he can wear to keep warm while in his tub) if he can show me were I slammed artic.  

[Vinny]

Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.

We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.

No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?

My son went in with a freshly washed suit and I had some foam, I then added enzyme and now I have FOAM. So I truely have a FULL FOAM TUB!

[bosco0633]

my appologies, I meant to say end the TP FF debate.  Not paranoid, however, the drugs that I tried in college keep coming back in my system.  

I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.