my first chemical question?

[Soakin]

... my bromine levels have been between 0.5 and 1.  I really don't worry about it because I usually put in a teaspoon or two of di-chlor after I soak.  Then I shock every week with MPS.  It's been working...

At least in theory, this sounds like a good routine. I am travelling a lot for half the year, and my wife often doesn't have time to use the spa alone, or be as faithful in adding dichlor between uses, resulting in water problems from time to time.  Nature2 has helped, but the water still has gotten cloudy from time to time.  I have been considering switching to a bromine/frog system to allow a little more room for error.  I like the idea of a low level of bromine feeding into the tub as a background sanitizer, and continuing to use dichlor as a primary sanitizer to kill the bugs after each use.  To me this sounds like it could be the best of both worlds, low levels of sanitizer while you soak, limited bromine odors, the flexibility to match use and sanitizer dose that dichlor affords, and a feeder to supply sanitizer in between.

Does anyone have long-term experience with this system?  One concern would be cover and pillow life.  As Chas has pointed out from time to time, one of the big advantages of dichlor is that you leave the cover off after application, so the gases can escape, rather than hover under the cover for extended periods.  I know Brilliance is a chlorine free alternative to tablets, but neither of the dealers I frequent carry it.

[drewstar]

Ahh, Soakin's post has helped me understand the dual sanitizer approach.

Soakin, do you use an Ozinator as well?

[Soakin]

Used to, but it failed twice.  Once due to a bad check valve, the second time it just fried for some unknown reason.  The second time it was out of warranty, and the dealer suggested trying to go without it for awhile to see if I felt I needed it.  Although he sold a lot of them, and also carried a line (D1) that supposedly has one of the best ozone systems, he was of the opinion that it is more marketing hype than actual value.  I found little difference in water quality or chemical usage, so I never put it back in.  At the time, we were using the tub more frequently, and I was not travelling, so it is possible that ozone would help more now, but after two failures, I doubt I'll go back.

[drewstar]

Used to, but it failed twice.  Once due to a bad check valve, the second time it just fried for some unknown reason.  The second time it was out of warranty, and the dealer suggested trying to go without it for awhile to see if I felt I needed it.  Although he sold a lot of them, and also carried a line (D1) that supposedly has one of the best ozone systems, he was of the opinion that it is more marketing hype than actual value.  I found little difference in water quality or chemical usage, so I never put it back in.  At the time, we were using the tub more frequently, and I was not travelling, so it is possible that ozone would help more now, but after two failures, I doubt I'll go back.

Curious.

Do you know if it was a Cornoa Discharge ozinator or the UV bulb.

What do you make of the discussions that you are not supposed to mix dichlor and bromine?

[keating]

What do you make of the discussions that you are not supposed to mix dichlor and bromine?

I don't make much of it, considering the bromine concentrate I have is something like 57.2% dichlor.

[drprwnap]

Thanks for all the thoughtful insight!  I kinda tried this routine on my own after reading a bunch of chemical posts the last 6 months or so.

Soakin',
I really like the frog.  Of course, being that's it's an in-line system has a lot to do with it.  I really don't want something floating in the tub.  
I leave the cover off for about 15 min. after adding the di-chlor.  Don't have to worry about pillow damage, Marquis doesn't have any!  

drprwnap  

[drewstar]

I don't make much of it, considering the bromine concentrate I have is something like 57.2% dichlor.

That doesn't sound like Bromine concentrate....it sounds more like ...well, a cheap dichlor mix.

[Brewman]

What is the purpose of mixing dichlor in bromine, anyway?   The bromine I use, Brilliance, doesn't have anything in it but bromine per the ingredients on the package.

[hymbaw]

Dichlor is a better oxidizer than Bromine, or so I'm told.

[Soakin]

Do you know if it was a Cornoa Discharge ozinator or the UV bulb.  What do you make of the discussions that you are not supposed to mix dichlor and bromine?

It was a CD unit.

Regarding mixing dichlor and bromine: as I said, I am considering it for my tub.  I have no experience with it, but theoretically, I don't see any problems with mixing the two.  First of all, they are closely related chemically, both members of the halogen family.  My chemistry is pretty rusty, but I believe you can make chlorine by passing a current through a bromine/salt soltion or vice-versa.  Second, as other posts have stated, most bromine tabs have 25% or more dichlor, so we know they can mix.  Finally, some people shock their bromine tubs with dichlor, in order to get the "supersanitation" that comes along with the oxidation of the amines.

Is it possible you got the idea that you shouldn't mix them from posts that talk about switching from one system to the other?  Because bromine doesn't dissipate over time in a hot tub like chorine, once you add bromine to a tub, it stays a "bromine tub" until you change water.  Someone may have cautioned not to add bromine to a dichlor tub for that reason.

Brewman, regarding why there is dichlor in most bromine tabs, I'm guessing it is cheaper to make a "dirty" bromine, but I think it also serves to "activate" the bromine.

[Soakin]

Dichlor is a better oxidizer than Bromine, or so I'm told.

Does bromine oxidize at all?  I know that most people shock their bromine tubs with MPS or dichlor.

[drewstar]

Does bromine oxidize at all?  I know that most people shock their bromine tubs with MPS or dichlor.

I think there is some confusion, and in an effort to try to understand, as well as share what I know, I am sure I will add to the confusion: (Where the hell is Doc? Isn't he our resident chemist?) This is how I understand it, I could be mistaken.....

Bromine and Dichlor are both oxidizers. They are used as sanitizers to kill bacteria in the water.

They can both be used to also "shock" the water, if they are added in large enough quantites.  Shocking creates a chemical reaction that frees up the used chlorine and bromine and burns off the organic matter that was destroyed by the chlorine and bromine during the sanitizing doses.

MPS  is also a shocking agent.,

Does anyone know if MPS kills bacteria? Or does it only free up the chlorine, bromine, and acts against smells and such?

I understand Dichlor may be a more effective sanitizer as I have heard it destroys a wider "range" of bacteria than Bromine.

Bromine is cheaper and is considered to be "less harsh" on the skin and hair.  


I am still confsused on the Dichlor and Bromine mixing.  It is my understanding that if you add Dichlor to a predominetly bromine tub, the dichlor changes to bromine.  If that' true, then why add it?

and reversely, Adding small amounts of Bromine to a perdominelty Dichlor tub  wouldn't do anything additional. No?


   

[drewstar]

Is it possible you got the idea that you shouldn't mix them from posts that talk about switching from one system to the other?  Because bromine doesn't dissipate over time in a hot tub like chorine, once you add bromine to a tub, it stays a "bromine tub" until you change water.  Someone may have cautioned not to add bromine to a dichlor tub for that reason.

Yup.  I did.

I did a bit of research yesterday and my findings and how I understand it are in my previous post in this thread.

Thanks.  

[ssbraun]

Interesting read here:

http://www.biophysica.com/bromine.htm

Steve

[Brewman]

If I understand correctly, and that's a really big IF, dichlor and bromine both kill bacteria.  MPS does not, and cannot be used as a sanitizer.  What it does do, is burn off organics.  
And from what I've observed, it also somehow "reactivates" the bromine.  I've noticed that when I shock, the bromine reading goes up a bit.
Then comes back down in a day or so.

And addressing another topic in this thread, you can convert from a dichlor only tub to a bromine tub without changing the water, but if you want to go from a bromine tub to a dichlor tub, you have to change water.