Full Foam versus Perimeter Insulation

[spahappy]

Just a question, are the Jacuzzi 48 frame pumps and the Coleman's 56 frame if so this might be the reason for them being quieter.

The Colemans had 48 frame pumps not long ago and they were just as quiet. IMO the benifit of the larger 56 frame pump is it runs cooler than a 48 frame.

[stuart]

....wait there's that sound again....hear it??

Yep, another can of worms is getting opened up slowley

[fletch49]

I also own an Arctic Spa, and am very happy with the tub. This is my first tub, so I really can't compare it to the competition, but, I will say that it is an exceptionally well built tub.

The ergonomic design is not for all, but that is why you wet test.

The fiberglass floor, shell, cabinet, and cover to name a few are all really built to last. The warranty is on par with the best warranties out there.

I don't think that you could hook it up to the power grid and co-generate power as some of the AS salesman might lead you to believe, but it is a power efficient tub...as tubs go.

I have one complaint. Compared to other tubs I have sat in...this tub is noisy. The pumps are a bit louder than average, and the diverter valves can make a racket under certain settings.

[Spatech_tuo]

Excellent well-balanced, insightful post Fletch.

[stl-rex]

Yes I have an Arctic also.  It's got three pumps and I simply can't believe it's louder than other brands I tested that only had two and weren't as powerful and didn't move as much water..............

I do notice that the diverters in certain positions get loud, particulary when you have nearly all the flow directed to one side of the diverter.  It sounds like it can't decide on the water/air mix to allow.  I also notice that when the blower is on, the bubbling causes quite a racket and the blower itself does have a "whine" to it.  

There appear to be variables that can contribute to "loudness" that may or may not be directly attributable to the method of insulation.  When we were at a show recently, we didn't notice Arctic standing out as particularly noisy although ambient noise was high and may have masked everyone's noise level.

[gm]

Thanks again, I think that I have decided on the Pacific Spa for a number  of personal preferences, but I am always second guessing myself.  Ergo, I may not be done deciding just yet.
GM

[salesdvl]

....wait there's that sound again....hear it??

Yep, another can of worms is getting opened up slowley

I love that phrase.      

[HotTubMan]

and fwiw, some colemans only have 1 pump.

I find it hard to believe that a if two spas have identical pumps, the TP is qoing to be quiter than a FF.

You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.

Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.

Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.

So, there is actual evidence that Coleman is quieter, BUT, there's no evidence that TP is quieter than FF. That's simply as assumption. There is the possibility that if you full foamed a Coleman it would be even quieter.

Get it quiet enough, and at some point it could really beat out Arctic. It's been discouvered Arctic can't cogenerate electricity, but perhaps Coleman could cogenerate scilence. Imaging it. A spa SO quiet it actually eliminates other noises around it.

Does your neighbours dog keep you up at night from it's barking?

Traffic noise on the street causing you insomnia?

Kids bickering and screaming driving you crazy?

Do you never want to hear your wife nag you again?

Well my friends, all you have to do is turn on your spa! This spa is so quiet the dB meter runs in the negative. THATS RIGHT, turn on this spa and it will absord the sounds around it making your life once again a peacful quiet bliss.

P.S. This spa's jets are so powerful, be sure to use them to power wash your driveway whenever you drain the spa (anyone still remember where this came from? :-)  )

[spaman--]

You dont have to beleive it. I have sold Beachcomber, Coleman, D-1 (side by side with the Coleman on the floor) and Hydropool. I have observed countless other brands shopping, TP, FF and Arctic.

Coleman was the quietest. Hands down.

I really dont believe it as I was at the local Coleman dealer yesterday and the noise from the water flow inside the plumbing was quite loud compared to other brands while the pumps were in full operation. Were you referrring to when it is only in filter mode or idle between filter modes as I would have to say that Cal Spas, L.A Spas and Hotspring are all quieter during full operation.

[HotTubMan]

So, there is actual evidence that Coleman is quieter, BUT, there's no evidence that TP is quieter than FF. That's simply as assumption. There is the possibility that if you full foamed a Coleman it would be even quieter.

)

Agreed. In fact I found Arctic tubs to be a little loud. Not sure why. Perhaps the polystyrene is a better sound insulator than 2lb foam.

[rottweiler]

If everyone is saying that it is a personal preference between full foam and the perimeter insulation, shouldn't the people who have lost power in below 32 degree weather answer the real test?  Will my tub freeze if I am without power for a week especially since it was not a cheap purchase?  I don't have to worry about my house because I have a generator for those times but I can't run my tub on it.  I personally have had this happen and I have full foam.  I did not suffer from frozen pumps and my tub was in tact when the power was restored.  I guess I figure this is like house insulation, the more you have the better you are.  How can this be different?  It doesn't seem logical that both would work the same.  

[Brewman]

It may come down to the design of the specific spa.
Some TP spas may hold heat better than some FF's, and vice versa.

I can only use my experience as an example.  Last week I got a FLO error on my Sundance Optima, which is full foam.   The heater wouldn't switch on for about 36 hours or so.  But there was power to the spa, so the filtration pump ran as scheduled, but the circulation pump and it's related plumbing did not run.
I'd say the temperature during this period averaged maybe 10 degrees farenheit.
The water temperature dropped about 4 degrees, maybe 5 in this 36 hours, and none of the circulation pump plumbing had any signs of freezing.  I didn't have to worry about the 2 main pumps freezing, since they could still run.  I suspect that the couple hours of filtration- running the spa water into the unheated and uninsulated part of the spa and back in possibly contributed to the temperature decrease.  The method and quality of the full foam in a spa would certainly impact it's ability to hold heat- more so in colder temperatures than I had to deal with.


In the same situation, a TP spa would have released water heat into the cabinet cavity, and how well it was retained there would be totally dependent on how well the cabinet of the spa was insulated.  A leaky cabinet would have sapped a lot of heat, especially if it was windy out, which it was for me.  A well insulated cabinet would hold heat better.  

Despite the rantings of our lunatic friend in CO,
I don't think we'll ever settle the FF vs TP debate.  There are good expamples and bad examples of both types.  
On Arjuna's board, a recent poster commented on how much heat he detected leaking from his Haven.

[Soakin]

I guess I figure this is like house insulation, the more you have the better you are.  How can this be different?

I don't think it is quite that easy.  I'm no expert in thermodynamics, but there is a difference in the way heat moves through water, solids, and air.  My crude understanding:  in solids, it radiates in all directions -- air loses density as it warms, so it rises -- and water, I believe, mixes through a series of inversions.  Then you have the whole dead air space issue.  How that all relates to a hot tub that contains all three, I have idea, and apparently the engineers that design tubs are split on the answer.

The FF/TP debate has been done so many times that it has earned its "dead horse" status.  One thing that there seems to be consensus on is that the effectiveness of each insulation method is probably more dependent on how well it is executed than which method is chosen.  It would seem to me that TP is probably easier to do poorly, and conversely...difficult to do well, which is why only a few top quality spas use it.  That doesn't mean the good ones aren't equal to or superior to FF.  To add to the confusion, I would suspect that one method might be superior in moderate ambient temps while the other does better when it is cold out.  Which one, I don't know.

As far as surviving a power out freeze, as Brewman identified, a FF tub's equipment is at risk if water isn't circulating through the compartment.  On the other hand, a TP tub has the heat from the water warming the air space the equipment is in.  Which one turns into a block of ice first?  I don't think we'll find any volunteers to run that experiment.

[spaman--]

Well it got down to -13 degrees in Centennial Colorado and -19 in other areas around. So we will see which if any calls come in today regarding freezing of any brand of tub.