start up routine

[keating]

set up the new tub last evening.

checked the untreated water.... hardness, TA and pH are off the chart.....

max reading for hardness on the strip was 850.

to cold water in 440 gallon tub, added 4 oz of stain and scale (Arctic Pure Best Defense) according to instructions (2oz per 250 gallons) and powered up the spa....

By now, I've added about 9 oz of "Arctic Pure Adjust Down". The bottle says "lowers Alkalinity and pH" and the instructions say "broadcast over water surface untill pH is lower than 7.6"....no indication of how much to add to a given body of water to reduce pH points, so I've been adding 2oz or so at a time, a couple hours apart, until I get a reading....this morning it looked like pH was down to around 8.0 - 8.2.
I'm hoping this last dose will get down in the 7's by quittin time.

I'm guessing the high hardness is acting as a HUGE pH buffer.....which the stain & scale should have helped.....but does the stain and scale take a while to work? will it work all of a sudden and my pH will drop like a rocket?

I asked the desk jockey at the dealer and he said they recommend if you've got real hard water, to fill half from water softener, and half straight water.....the sales guy doesn't live far from me, and is on a well also, and says he just uses straight well water....no stain& scale....
just fills, adjusts pH down to proper, and throws in the bromine floater.

I've heard softened water is high in TDS so I didn't want to go that route, so I did some reading and figured stain & scale would be the best route to go.

Am I on the right track?

I've read to get Alk dialed in first, but how do you adjust alk down without adjusting pH, and shouldn't I be trying to knock the hardness (alk & pH buffer) down first?

[Brewman]

My tap water is relatively high in ALK, but pretty close on for PH.  I use PH decreaser to get the alk down, then re test and adjust PH up if necessary.  

Does your dealer offer water analysis?  I usually take a sample of untreated spa water in and have them do a readout- tells me how much of what chemical I'll need to add to get the water balanced.  I have to use a lot of PH decrease to get in range.

[keating]

My tap water is relatively high in ALK, but pretty close on for PH.  I use PH decreaser to get the alk down, then re test and adjust PH up if necessary.

Ah, ok.
So I see a product out there called "Alk Up", as well as chems that decrease both alk and ph simultaneously, or chems that increase/decrease pH without affecting alk...

so if your alk is low, add alk up untill it's right, then adjust pH.......if you alk is high, add a 2 in 1 pH/Alk reducer till alk is right, and add a pH up product that does not affect Alk.

Seems simple enough.  

Does your dealer offer water analysis?  I usually take a sample of untreated spa water in and have them do a readout- tells me how much of what chemical I'll need to add to get the water balanced.  I have to use a lot of PH decrease to get in range.
 

yep...they sure do, but I intend to at least get the alk/ph in a non-harmful range so I can enjoy the tub for a few days before heading into the dealer on the weekend.

BTW, you a home brewer or a commercial brewer, or just a guy who likes beer? I'm into all-grain homebrewing myself.......this hot tub thing is fantastic addition to that hobby......spent water from the wort chiller can be used as preheated top-up water for the tub!

[Brewman]

All grain homebrewer- thanks for asking!

I keep PH increase and decrease on hand, and use plain old baking soda to raise alk with minimal impact on ph.  

There are also Ph lock products out there, and other potions but I haven't tried any of them yet.

[wmccall]

How long are you waiting to recheck PH after adding down? I wait 24 hours before rechecking to avoid chasing the reading all over the place.

[Brewman]

I have to add about 24+ ounces of PH decrease whenever I replace my spa water.  I do this in 6 ounce increments, dosing every hour or two.  I don't even bother checking Ph until the next day or the day after that if I get too busy.  
The first couple times I refilled I tended to over manage and take too many readings- now I'm a lot less anxious and let things take their time.  
Probably takes me about 4 or 5 days to get things dialed in.  

I also let things settle down a bit on the higher side of acceptable, seems that my bromine/MPS routine has a downward impact on alk and Ph.  

[keating]

I have to add about 24+ ounces of PH decrease whenever I replace my spa water.

Nice to know.
28 hours since I started to fill......20 oz of pH down added by now, and still off the chart.

Once I get the alk down, I can fine tune pH back up with ph up I have on hand, or if neccesary, can bring it down, with the phosphoric acid I have for adjusting mash/sparge liquor.  

[keating]

26 oz (3/4 of 1kg bottle) of Adjust Down added to spa and Alk/pH are now in perfect range.

Yikes....glad that's only necessary at re-fill time.

6 oz of Best Defense (stain & scale) to get hardness below 450ppm

When I filled, I added about 1/2 oz of bromine concentrate granules, which pegged bromine off the chart initially....and tossed in the floater, opened all the way, with a full load of brom tabs......I assumed this would have been sufficient to establish a bromine reserve and maintain level........the level dropped to 0 after 24 hours, and is now hovering around 1 ppm......seems low for a fully loaded floater, fully open.

Anyhow.....shocked last night (4 oz of Arctic Pure Refresh), cuz I was nervous after 2 days with such a low brom reading, and this morning brom level is back to the 0/1 range.  

However, from what I understand, 1ppm should be sufficient with the ozonator?

[Brewman]

I get my Ph increase and Ph decrease from a big box store.  For about the same price as I pay for a small container (20 ounces?) at my spa dealer, I can get a much larger quantity, and the ingredients are identical.

[keating]

I get my Ph increase and Ph decrease from a big box store.  For about the same price as I pay for a small container (20 ounces?) at my spa dealer, I can get a much larger quantity, and the ingredients are identical.

Thanks.

I'll check Wal-Mart, etc, for ph Down at the very minimum......since that's the one I'll be using a LOT of.

[lawdawgva]

For anyone who needs to raise their Total Alkalinity without throwing the Ph too high, I have found that plain ol' baking soda from arm and hammer does the job.   I usually need to raise my TA when I fill and I use the baking soda to do that and only need a bit of PH Decrease after that to get the Ph in line.    

When I have used the PH Increase product sold by my dealer to raise the TA, it seems I get on a roller coaster of  more PH Decrease to lower the Ph and then OOPS...the TA is too low again...etc.   Something worth filing away for the future.

[Brewman]

I use baking soda as a substitute for the alk up, too.
Same exact ingredients.
Raises alk with a minimal effect on Ph.

[cappykat]

Just took a reading:

Total Hardness:  250
Bromine:  1
pH:  7.8
Total Alk:  120

I have the bromine spa frog set on #4.  Why would bromine be low when we aren't using the spa every night?

If you use baking soda to increase the alk, do you use vinegar to decrease it?

[Brewman]

Bromine can be tricky to get dialed in correctly, in my experience.  Shocking with a little MPS often results in a higher bromine reading.

I don't use vinegar to lower alk, I use Ph decreaser, which I only need on new water, since our alk reading is very high.  Once alk is balanced, I check Ph again and use Ph up or down as needed.  Usually, I have to add Ph increase and or baking soda, as the MPS shock I use tends to lower Ph and alk.

[cappykat]

What is MPS?  Is it just another brand of shock?