Nature 2 and Dichloro

[marks]

I have a new Beachcomber 780 hot tub and am using the Beachcomber Care free water treatment system.  The water is clear and I am having no problems, except I am using having issues keeping the PH and Alkalinity correct.    This is what I do:

     Daily Chlor Blast (Dichloro) (2 tablespoons)
     Weekly Care Free (Active ingredient Peroxysulfate) (4 oz)
     Weekly Soft (Water Softener) (3 oz)

My question is:

Would switching to the Nature 2 and Dichloro reduce the need for:
     PH up/down
     Alkalinity up down

Will my water seem better?

[TubsAndCues]

I would recommend the Nature 2 system without a doubt, especially if you have an ozonator.   The bonus to this system is that you don't have to add di-chlor daily, so if you want to go away for more than one night you don't have to worry.  Just shock with a chlorine based shock once a week and keep up on your Stain and Scale weekly treatment (3-4 days after your shock for best results.  We tend to put our customers on a Sunday & Wednesday schedule.)

Unfortunately, there isn't anything out there that will greatly reduce how often you need to adjust your pH or Total Alkalinity.

The 2 reasons you bought your tub, i.e. hot water and jets, are the two biggest culprits of causing your water balance to change.

The hotter the water is, the more your pH will want to rise on its own, and as air is induced into your tub via your jets, your T.A. will slowly lower over time.

You shouldn't need any pH increaser unless you are not maintaining your water on a weekly/bi-weekly basis.  The only reason you would ever need pH increaser is if you allow your T.A. to fall too low.  (T.A. is a pH buffer)

There are a few products out there that will help reduce pH bounce, but nothing will stop it.  The product I like best is Bioguard's Spa Silken.  Check it out if you are interested.

Good luck on your water chemistry, and let me know if I can help in any other way.

[marks]

Thanks for the input.  I am going to give Nature 2 a try. My issue is the Ph is to high and the Alkalinity is to low.  My water is very hard out of the tap and this makes the PH high right out of the box.

[TubsAndCues]

With well water like that, I always recommend taking in a water sample to a reputable dealer in town.  If you have a Bioguard dealer, I'd suggest trying them, but that's because that's what I use and am familiar with.

My guess is that your source water likely has a very high T.A. as well as high pH.  We need to get that T.A. down to a reasonable level before you can control your pH.

The next time you drain and refill your tub, take a water sample into a dealer and they'll help you adjust it.  After you've got it in line, just like all my other customers who bring in water from their tubs, you should expect to find your pH a bit high and T.A. a bit low after about a week.

Good luck and enjoy your tub!

[Soakin]

...The 2 reasons you bought your tub, i.e. hot water and jets, are the two biggest culprits of causing your water balance to change.  The hotter the water is, the more your pH will want to rise on its own, and as air is induced into your tub via your jets, your T.A. will slowly lower over time.  You shouldn't need any pH increaser unless you are not maintaining your water on a weekly/bi-weekly basis.  The only reason you would ever need pH increaser is if you allow your T.A. to fall too low.  (T.A. is a pH buffer)...

Tubsandcues,
I've seen you mention heat as a cause of pH-rise a couple of times and wondered if you would explain that a little more.

My understanding of pH is that it is a measure of the relative balance between acidic and basic compounds in a solution.  I don't see how heat would affect it unless the water is hot enough to evaporate the base or acid (the H2O is neutral).

I understand your comments regarding TA as a pH buffer and air as an agent that lowers TA (I believe pH as well), but FYI -- my pH tends to drift down over time in spite of TA on the upper end of normal.  This is with a dichlor system, and little/no MPS.  I monitor my water regularly, but I do have a need for soda ash/baking soda, and would be surprised if others don't as well, especially MPS and bromine users.

Marks,  it seems you already know that high pH and low TA is a tough challenge since sodium bisulfate (dry acid/pH down) lowers both.  You could try buffering the dry acid with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda/some brands of pH up) which will raise TA, along with a slight increase in pH.   You may be a candidate for a pH lock product.  I don't have any experience with them, but I think they are marketed under names like "pH Magic" -- try the Dr. Spa site (rhtubs.com) for more info.  
Looking at your current routine, 2 TBS of dichlor daily is a lot, unless the product you are using is a low concentration.  Just FYI, the MPS you are using as a shock will tend to lower pH (and probably TA) over time.  You may want to consider dichlor shocks once you get your pH dialed in.   I have no experience with the softener product you are using, but I am surprised that it is used as weekly maintenance rather than at start up to balance the water.  It seems to me you would want to get the calcium out of the water before it can start to do damage.  By the way, with hard water you should also be using a stain/scale preventer as part of your regular routine.
 
You may also want to consult other local dealers who may have experience with the issues associated with your water for a second opinion.

Good luck!

[TubsAndCues]

Tubsandcues,
I've seen you mention heat as a cause of pH-rise a couple of times and wondered if you would explain that a little more.

My understanding of pH is that it is a measure of the relative balance between acidic and basic compounds in a solution.  I don't see how heat would affect it unless the water is hot enough to evaporate the base or acid (the H2O is neutral).

I understand your comments regarding TA as a pH buffer and air as an agent that lowers TA (I believe pH as well), but FYI -- my pH tends to drift down over time in spite of TA on the upper end of normal.  This is with a dichlor system, and little/no MPS.  I monitor my water regularly, but I do have a need for soda ash/baking soda, and would be surprised if others don't as well, especially MPS and bromine users.

Hey Soakin!

I'm not a chemistry guru, but I do understand a lot of what goes on in the water.  All the "whys" sometimes leave me, but I looked up the scientific reason for you in my BioGuard training manual because after you asked why, I wanted a refresher too!

From BioGuard 2000 ChemPlus manual, pg. 225:
"The heat also causes carbon dioxide to become less soluble in water forcing it to gas off.  In addition to the heat, aeration and venturi air injection also eliminate carbon dioxide.  Without CO2 in the water, carbonic acid is unable to form and the pH tends to rise causing cloudiness, scale formatoin, inefficient sanitizer activity, and bather discomfort."

That's all the technical stuff!!!  

My company is very focused on understanding how the chems react in different situations, and what to expect.  None of our staff are even allowed to attempt selling hot tubs, etc. until we feel they have a very strong understanding of water chemistry.  

Even though I don't consider myself a chemistry wizard, I am a bit nerdy about the stuff and have done some pretty extensive research and training on it.

Hope this helps clarify things for you (your water included!    )

[orlandoguy]

Lowering my ph is always one of the recommendations the pool store gives me as I stop in a couple times a month for a free water test.  It isn't a lot, but I always seem to be slightly high on the ph.

One thing they told me was never add more than an ounce of ph down at a time, test, then add more if needed.  I assume it is better to run a little high than low or it is harder to bring it up than down?

[TubsAndCues]

By adding too much at one time, you'll affect your total alkalinity more than just your pH.  Your dealer is trying to keep you from having to adjust that more than needed.

Sounds like you've got a dealer who's got your best interest in mind!  Thank him next time you can!

[Soakin]

From BioGuard 2000 ChemPlus manual, pg. 225:
"The heat also causes carbon dioxide to become less soluble in water forcing it to gas off.  In addition to the heat, aeration and venturi air injection also eliminate carbon dioxide.  Without CO2 in the water, carbonic acid is unable to form and the pH tends to rise causing cloudiness, scale formatoin, inefficient sanitizer activity, and bather discomfort."

Thanks, Tubsandcues!  I appreciate the background.  As I said, my own experience is contrary to Bioguard's in that my pH tends to drift down over time.  As a result, I think your statement that "you shouldn't need pH increaser, unless you are not maintaining your water..." is a little too general, but I'm glad to see you had a basis for it.  I'm glad you joined the board, and appreciate your contributions.

Orlandoguy,  I'm sure your dealer is having you add the dry acid gradually to make sure you don't overshoot, especially if you have low TA like Marks.  However, if your pH is always running high and your TA is acceptable, you can add more to bring pH down quicker, and IMO should because of the problems with prolonged high pH that Tubsandcues mentioned.  My pH and TA is high right out of the tap, and I have to add several ounces of pH down to get it in line.  I add it in several small doses over the course of the first 3 days until my pH starts to move (always add with pumps off, aerator on if you have one), then I slow down, giving the pH 24 hours between doses to stabilize before testing.  

To answer your question about raising pH if you over shoot:  No, it isn't hard --sodium carbonate (soda ash) will raise pH with little affect on TA, while sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will raise both.  The thing is that you don't want to run an "acid tub" for very long due to corrosion of your components, so it is better to ease your way down.

[marks]

TubsAndCues,

Here's my current plan, my tub is 400 gallons.

Use Nature 2.  
Shock with 1/2 teaspon Dichloro after use

Sunday
Clean filter and shock with 1 1/2 teaspoons Dichloro

Wednesday
Add Stain and Scale inhibitor

How does this sound?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

[Vinny]

TubsAndCues,

Here's my current plan, my tub is 400 gallons.

Use Nature 2.  
Shock with 1/2 teaspon Dichloro after use

Sunday
Clean filter and shock with 1 1/2 teaspoons Dichloro

Wednesday
Add Stain and Scale inhibitor

How does this sound?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

Way TOO LITTLE chlorine IMHO.  Shoot for 2-3 PPM chlorine 20 min after putting chlorine in the tub (1 soak cycle). Every tub is different and every soaking situation is different so a blanket amount of chlorine may or may not do the job.

As for shock - you want 7 to 10 times the amount of your "daily use" or to be more exact your combined chlorine to burn up the combined chlorine.

[marks]

I am just following the directions from Nature II's web site and my spa dealer.

http://www.nature2.com/spas2.asp

Notice at the bottom:

1 Tablespoon MPS = 3 Teaspoons Dichloro

I want to elimnate MPS and go with Dichloro.  Is Nature II wrong or am I reading it wrong.  

Thanks,

Mark

[Gair]

I am just following the directions from Nature II's web site and my spa dealer.

http://www.nature2.com/spas2.asp

Notice at the bottom:

1 Tablespoon MPS = 3 Teaspoons Dichloro

???From the Nature II site As an alternative to potassium monopersulfate, dichlor may be substituted:
1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate.

I want to elimnate MPS and go with Dichloro.  Is Nature II wrong or am I reading it wrong.    

Thanks,

Mark

[windsurfdog]

TubsAndCues,

Here's my current plan, my tub is 400 gallons.

Use Nature 2.  
Shock with 1/2 teaspon Dichloro after use

Sunday
Clean filter and shock with 1 1/2 teaspoons Dichloro

Wednesday
Add Stain and Scale inhibitor

How does this sound?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

Mark, .5 tsp of dichlor is not a shock at all.  In order to shock with dichlor, you must add enough dichlor to exceed the chlorine break point--enough to increase ppm to 10-12 or so.....only then will the dichlor oxidize  chloramines and attached contaminants.  MPS, on the other hand, is only an oxidant and will oxidize with any quantity--it is not dependant on any break point amounts.

Notice at the bottom:
 
1 Tablespoon MPS = 3 Teaspoons Dichloro

I'm at a loss with this statement.  Since 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons, what does this statement say?  Are they inferring that MPS and dichlor have the same oxidizing properties?  If so, they are incorrect for the points mentioned above.

If you haven't done so already, do yourself a big favor and read Northman's and Vermonter's FAQ entries on water management here:
Water Management

[tonyp]

1 Tablespoon MPS = 3 Teaspoons Dichloro
 

The correct statement from the website is:
1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate