Arctic spas

[JcDenton]

I couldn't agree with you more Stuart. Let's see what happens.



Jc



Oh, and Bill - it's Arctic with a c. If people are going to challenge the brand it would be nice if they at least spelled it right! I've always found it interesting how so many people can know so much about a product yet don't know enough to spell it correctly.

[Spatech_tuo]

Oh, and Bill - it's Arctic with a c.

The spa industry has a few terms that get butchered constantly such as the word Niagara. I was watching Celebrity Jeopardy earlier this year and the final answer was NIAGARA FALLS. All three got it right but only Al Franken spelled it correctly and jokingly asked why they got credit while misspelling it (the others of course had it "Niagra", missing the middle "a").

[wmccall]

Jc



Oh, and Bill - it's Arctic with a c. If people are going to bash the brand it would be nice if they at least spelled it right! I've always found it interesting how so many people can know so much about a product yet don't know enough to spell it correctly.

 

Your not accusing me of bashing this or any brand are you?

[JcDenton]

Of course not. The comment was meant for those who wish to take offense in the future. This would more than likely not include yourself.


Jc

This is where threads will be moved that turn in to the same old hashing of FF vs TP, Master's Spa Shows, Artic Martketing, etc, etc.

[Tman122]

Oh, and Bill - it's Arctic with a c. If people are going to bash the brand it would be nice if they at least spelled it right! I've always found it interesting how so many people can know so much about a product yet don't know enough to spell it correctly.  

I'm not sure were the brand bashing is going on? I don't see much brand bashing, just putting the brand back in perspective, and sales pitch bashing.

My neighbor has an Arctic it's a fine tub, I have soaked in it many many times and got very very drunk in it also. Meaning it works good. Just not any better than mine as I stated. The only real differencses I can see between the 2 are mine is older, quieter, and a heck of alot cheaper when purchased. I do however like the cedar on his cabinet better than mine. But if mine gets to ugly I can build a better cabinet in a couple days.

[wmccall]

Of course not. The comment was meant for those who wish to take offense in the future. This would more than likely not include yourself.


Jc

Oh, ok, forgot about that. I've had so much on my plate this last two weeks I've lost track of it all. Turned in my two week notice effective Monday 8/1 so I can spend more time monitoring this board and playing 9 holes at lunch time until the new job starts.

[JcDenton]

I've been doing midnights myself so my clock/timing is a little off - sorry for the confusion.

Jc


I modified my original post to those who are following this thread.

[rgadbois]

I have just that tub you asked for... I have one of the original Arctic designs for almost eleven years now, still running great, had pump seal once and upgraded to the new cover, thats all.  When I do decide to get another when this one quits, no doubt it will be Arctic and nothing else.  Just my opinion and to me it's the only one that counts.

Good Day All!

[Brewman]

Good Day

[stabone]

Here's one question that you can try and get answered as I have never been able to.

They rely so heavily on the pumps keeping this empty space within the spa heated in the brutal cold of Northern Ontario.

That being said, when, in your mind, do the pumps generate a great deal of heat? I'll give you this one...when they are running on high speed. So, assuming you are using your spa and hour a day, everyday (which is VERY high usage), then what is keeping that empty cabinet warm for the other 23 hours per day at -30 C when those pumps are not running at all or on a low, circulation speed?

We know these spas are not 100% thermally sealed and any reputable Arctic salesperson will agree. They need to cool the pumps as well as inject air into that cabinet for air injection into the jets.

Ask that one question to your salesman and I'd love to hear the response if you get it. I've never had an Arctic salesperson that could clearly explain this to me in all the years. Thanks.

Steve

       Steve, this question you  raise about the pumps is not that hard of a question, it is like every other conversation with you about Arctic,  you try make your points by blurring the facts and wording things in your favor.   You are always critical about Arctic's marketing of their product, Yet I see that HydroPool  markets things like putting a piece of plastic over the piping before they foam over it as a selling point,  self cleaning not really any different than tubs with bottom suction,  except for the marketing of it.  
   The problem with your question,  and why you do not get it answered is that you don't agree with or understand how the insulation design works. (That is fine).      
 
 The pumps do not keep the air space warm- the water does!  Whatever heat (even if it is just small amounts through out the day during the filtering cycles) Is used not wasted to help retain air space and water temp.  Unlike a HydroPool the heat from the pumps is not blocked from the water by insulation nor is the heat from the water blocked  from heating the air space.  The pump heat is just a bonus!!  
  To that point, you answer how equal or less insulation around a shell retains heat better than equal  insulation around the cabinet.  
  As for the question about a sealed cabinet,  it is not air tight, (If you want I would be more than happy to cram you in a cabinet and see if you sufficate.)  The doors are not sealed with gaskets, there is a metal screened drain hole in the floor.  But it is not vented, is a car more thermally sealed with the windows cracked or closed? A Building retains heat better with the windows and doors shut.  
   Steve, there is a point  we are going to both have to agree on if we want to get your question answered.  I will ask you a  question so we can see if we agree .

  1) Do you believe a hydroPool  retains heat better then an Arctic.  (While the pumps are off)  I believe they would be very similar.  
 
 
  Steve, think about how a TP is built,  Heavy insulation around the shell to keep the water warm, a little insulation around the cabinet perimeter. (Steve why is there insulation around the perimeter of the cabinets on your tubs)  The heat from the water is retained by the insulation on the shell, most of the heat from the water will be lost through the cover. Most covers are not as good of insulation as what is around the shell, heat rises, path of least resistance, you know stuff like that!!!!   So why put insulation on the cabinet, and shell?  If the insulation on the shell is sufficient in retaining the heat in the water, where is the heat coming from that needs to be retained by the cabinet insulation on one of your tubs.  The only source or heat in the airspace on a HydroPool is from the pumps! Steve, Where does the heat come from under one of your cabinets that protects the equipment from freezing between filter cycles. In these -30 temps you speak of.  With all that insulation around the shell, it isn't from the water.  What protects the equipment from freezing up between filter cycles.  Steve do you think it is from your pump motors?  

    How do you keep the airspace above freezing in -30 degrees with a cabinet that has less insulation than an Arctic Cabinet and little or no heat from the water, where does the heat come from the other 23 hours a day no one is using your tub???   During the one hour of use, your pumps make enough heat to keep a poorly insulated cabinet above freezing temps.  It doesn't make sense to me Steve, I think you use the heat from your pumps too.  

 

[HotTubMan]

Stabone;

I must applaud you for a couple of  things.

Your messages are much more logical and literate than when you first appeared on the board.

You are the first Arctic sales representative that I have encountered that admits that the cabinet is not sealed.

Bravo

[Spatech_tuo]

   As for the question about a sealed cabinet,  it is not air tight, (If you want I would be more than happy to cram you in a cabinet and see if you sufficate.)    

In the interest of science, I think we should proceed with this experiement.

[Tman122]

Hey Stabone I would like to ask you something. If you have 3-4 inches of insulation on the cabinet walls only of whatever tub you own and 2-3 inches on the cabinet and 3-4 on the shell of another brand which will hold heat better during run times and non run times.

I could state that in my opinion the tub with the most insulation would hold heat better, but it seems facts get scewed to make the lesser insulation better or equal somehow.

[Steve]

   

Steve, this question you  raise about the pumps is not that hard of a question, it is like every other conversation with you about Arctic,  you try make your points by blurring the facts and wording things in your favor.

Sorry if that upsets you Stabby but I'm just using the Arctic phrasing. From what I've seen and heard...it upsets more than you!

You are always critical about Arctic's marketing of their product, Yet I see that HydroPool  markets things like putting a piece of plastic over the piping before they foam over it as a selling point,

My suggestion to you would be to have a full and complete understanding of something prior to attempting to discredit it. Kinda makes ya sound foolish otherwise. Creating a design that prevents the plumbing from moving is something I don't expect you to fully understand nor believe in.

self cleaning not really any different than tubs with bottom suction,  except for the marketing of it.  

See above comment regarding the ability to gain a level of understanding. If you are relating a bottom suction to Hydropool's self cleaning, you really need to do your homework! I'd love to set up a Hydropool dealer next door to you if that's how you would sell against it!!

The problem with your question, and why you do not get it answered is that you don't agree with or understand how the insulation design works. (That is fine).

Hence the reason I ask the question.
 

The pumps do not keep the air space warm- the water does!

So if I understand this correctly, you are relying on heat induction from the body of water to keep that cabinet warm. Hmmm, so we heat the body of water and then allow this heat to be transferred away only to have to heat it again? When heat is transferred, heat is lost. The energy efficiency aspect of a spa is determined by how well we can effectively trap that heat and prevent the body of water from decreasing in temperature. This method lacks sense in the way you describe it?

Whatever heat (even if it is just small amounts through out the day during the filtering cycles) Is used not wasted to help retain air space and water temp.  Unlike a HydroPool the heat from the pumps is not blocked from the water by insulation nor is the heat from the water blocked  from heating the air space.  The pump heat is just a bonus!!

You might want to check your Arctic sales brochure.
The difference of your design is that it is a single thermal lock whereas Hydropool's is a double thermal lock. We also allow heat induction from the body of water into our first small area where the plumbing is. The vast difference is that your design releases into the entire cabinet which is not thermal loc in any way. We use heat energy from the pumps in the perimeter of the cabinet only forming 1 thermal barrier. The insulation used is to prevent temp creep and trap in that heat induction from the body of water. This is where IMO, Arctic design is terribly flawed. You are heating one area to transfer it to another only to reheat that first area again? All the marketing in the world can't prevent the obvious to people that know better.

Steve, there is a point  we are going to both have to agree on if we want to get your question answered.  I will ask you a  question so we can see if we agree .

   1) Do you believe a hydroPool  retains heat better then an Arctic.  (While the pumps are off)  I believe they would be very similar.  

I believe a Hydropool and most other spas do a better job truth be known...
 
 

Steve, think about how a TP is built.....blah, blah, blah  

In reading this paragraph a few times, I can only surmise that you are 100% brainwashed by the Arctic method and that you really need to have a clear understanding of how tubs are insulated and why. It's very clear that the blinders are fully secured on you and that it impedes your ability to gain full understanding on this issue. I can relate because I was somewhat like that with Beachcomber. It wasn't until I opened up and deprogrammed that other insulation methods made sense. You won't be at Arctic forever and I just hope you're still around these forums when that happens. A big, bright light will turn on and you'll realize the marketing got YOU TOO!

The rest is just asking me to train you on heat transfer and alternate designs and that’s not my job. My suggestion to you would be to come back with a basic level of understanding on insulation methods of the various companies you would like to compare to yours and discuss them then.

Steve

[HotTubMan]

Nice reply Steve