More electric stuff

[stl-rex]

A friend has a Sundance Bahia.  He put 60 amp breakers in.  He was going to do 50 amp, but the electrician said if he ran the 60 amp, he could run everything at once in the tub.  In the Sundance brochure, it lists these models as 30, 50 or 60 amp.  Does the extra 10 amp make a difference?  Or is it that they just will work with a 60amp breaker and wire?  It seems the Sundance models and that one in particular, certainly don't have any more pumps than the other major mfgs to require 60 amps to run on full.  If you run 60 amp wire/breaker and the spa requires 50, I would think you merely have excess capacity that would never be used and that it won't hurt the tub, correct?.  Of course wire seems to leap in cost if you go to >50amp.  After reviewing literature, while many mfgs show multiple amp lines in their specs, only Sundance goes to 60amps.  All the others stop at 50.  This includes D1, Hotsprings, Arctic, Caldera and Marquis.  Comments?

[Cola]

I believe that tub is setup to run both umps, blower and heat at the same time only with a 60 amp feed.  It draws about 48 amps whith is 80% of the breaker load.  I would recommend it because the price difference is within 20 or 30 bucks, depending on the distance from the panel to the tub

[Hot Tub Guru]

Sti-rex-

Tundra Legend Extreme (Arcitc Spa)

If you run all three pumps on the Arctic Spa with the blower the heater will actually turn off (to stay under 50amps).  But because of the insulation even in the middle of winter with three pumps running you won't lose any tempature.  

I believe this is the same for other manufactures.  But because of heat transfer the Arctic will maintain the proper temature.  

Last winter (Feb I believe) I sat in my spa for over 4 hours (hay it was after a long day of snowboarding while i was with my girlfriend).  The spa lost one degree!

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[tootall]

Ok look at amps this way amps messure the pressure or force of the electricity. Or in layman terms amps can be looked at as "horse power" Not that amps are. But if you can use 10 extra amps do so better have more and not need it then need it and not have it.

[stl-rex]

Sti-rex-

Tundra Legend Extreme (Arcitc Spa)

If you run all three pumps on the Arctic Spa with the blower the heater will actually turn off (to stay under 50amps).  But because of the insulation even in the middle of winter with three pumps running you won't lose any tempature.  

I believe this is the same for other manufactures.  But because of heat transfer the Arctic will maintain the proper temature.  

Last winter (Feb I believe) I sat in my spa for over 4 hours (hay it was after a long day of snowboarding while i was with my girlfriend).  The spa lost one degree!

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

I envy you hitting the slopes and then hitting your own truly therapeutic spa.  The resorts, if they have one, usually have warm bubbles, which feel good, but just aren't the same.  I usually go to SLC because it's easier to get there from here and now have a place to stay for free (wife's boss's financial advisor works out of Park City).

Good to know about the Legend Extreme.  Thanks.  I imagine with three pumps going, it will have no trouble holding temp even with the air on.  I'm waiting for the bid to come back for Electric and Concrete before making a final decision.  I think it may be higher than I initially thought, just like the price of GOOD tubs!    I know the Arctics don't require concrete, but we have to do it because we have nothing level enough regardless and it will make it look nicer anyway.

[Hubjeep]

My friend has a Vita Spa Elan, (I think they suggest a 60) he is running a 40 Amp breaker and 6 gauge wire (suitable for 50).  It works fine with everything turned on.  

Most of the spa packs I see are 50amp.

-John

[Mendocino101]

Sti-rex-

Tundra Legend Extreme (Arcitc Spa)

If you run all three pumps on the Arctic Spa with the blower the heater will actually turn off (to stay under 50amps).  But because of the insulation even in the middle of winter with three pumps running you won't lose any tempature.  

I believe this is the same for other manufactures.  But because of heat transfer the Arctic will maintain the proper temature.  

Last winter (Feb I believe) I sat in my spa for over 4 hours (hay it was after a long day of snowboarding while i was with my girlfriend).  The spa lost one degree!

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

Forgive me but this is where I have a real hard time with an Arctic dealer 4 hours and 1 degree of temp loss.....Just very very hard to believe and also very over the top again . Forgive me but 3 pumps I would assume put out a lot water and to sit in front of those for 4 hours would to be Superman like...I am not knocking the Arctic product in any way here and everything you say just may all be on the up and up .......but it simply makes me go hummmmm ...to stay in 4 hours in a spa with 2 people and 3 pumps running and minus 1 degree in temp loss with no heater outside in the snow....OK if you say so....

[Brewman]

There shouldn't be much cost difference in a wiring job for a 50 vs 60 amp installation, as 6 gauge wire is approved for either.  
The cost of the GFI in most cases should be the only difference.
Running with the jumper on your Bahia set for 60 amps will allow you to run both pumps and the heater at the same time, should the need arise.
This may happen if you are in your spa and it's really cold outside.  In a warmer climate it probably won't make much of a difference.
Brewman

[stl-rex]

I'm doing some advance work to understand the costs.  I was at Lowes looking at wire.  They had no 6/3 wire with ground rated at 60 amps.  They both were rated at 55 amps.  The "multi purpose" was $1.40/ft and the "flat" wire for burying underground (which we don't have to do) was $2.30/ft.

If using the plastic conduit, are you better off going with the conduit with the metal interior for performance or is that hype also?  Total ft of wire will be close to 100ft.  

No aluminum to the spa, correct?  Just copper?

[Brewman]

I think Sundance specifically mentions NO ALUMINUM wiring in the owners manual.  
Check with your local electrical code authority on what they allow for spa installs.  Whatever they say is what you'd go by, even if seemingly contrary to the NEC.
I had to wire my spa with an insulated ground wire all the way from my service panel, to the disconnect, and to the spa, and it had to be enclosed in conduit.  The wire you mention does not have an insulated ground, therefore may not be allowed.  Also, when you run this type of cable in conduit, you may be subject to de-rating, which will lower the current rating on the wire.
When used for it's allowed purpose, 6 gauge wire is fine for 60 amp applications.

Brewman

[Hot Tub Guru]

Mendocino101-

Sitting in a Legend spa with two people you don't need all 3 pumps on at the same time.  So turn one pump off and the heater will kick back on (if necessary).  However I have reference letters of customers who say the spa HEATS UP when the pumps are on high speed!  And you are correct sitting in front of the jets for that long Superman would be needed.  That's why Arctic has diverter valves.  I'm not a big on high pressure so I divert some pressure away from my seat.  This way I still have spinning jets giving me a therapeutic massage without blasting my back.  But remember at the time of question I wasn’t just sitting in front of the jet (I was with a women hehehe)  

If you want a ski vacation come to Breckenridge stay with me (great views of Buffalo Mtn from the spa) and test the Arctic for yourself.  If you have big group I work with lots of property management companies who have rental houses.  I could get your family a good deal on a house that has an Arctic Spa!  

Or if you like Lake Tahoe better that's fine too.  I own a rental house in Tahoe (with an Arctic of course)  

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[Hot Tub Guru]

COPPER!!!!!

[stl-rex]

Since we have longish run, I assume we could run aluminum to the spa panel and then copper from the panel to spa without problems?  The subpanel in the basement has 2 gauge aluminum to it from the main panel.  Then copper from there to all the lights and outlets.  I believe they run aluminum to save $.  

The guy that was out looking at the electric thinks it's going to be an issue running 80+ feet total length (panel to panel to spa) for a 50 amp draw (or at least very expensive due to wire).  He hasn't quoted me yet.  Since I'm not committed to a spa yet, I don't want to ask those guys for their recommended electricians.  If anything, my guy is going to error on the side of caution and use larger gauge wire which will cost more, but may not be necessary.

[Hubjeep]

I'm doing some advance work to understand the costs.  I was at Lowes looking at wire.  They had no 6/3 wire with ground rated at 60 amps.  They both were rated at 55 amps.  The "multi purpose" was $1.40/ft and the "flat" wire for burying underground (which we don't have to do) was $2.30/ft.

If using the plastic conduit, are you better off going with the conduit with the metal interior for performance or is that hype also?  Total ft of wire will be close to 100ft.  

No aluminum to the spa, correct?  Just copper?

I went with 3/4" nonmetallic conduit w/6gauge THHN pulled through it.  "Liquid tight" (flex conduit) connects to the tub and panel.  The flex conduit is available in metal core and all plastic, either should be fine.

The "multipurpose" wire sounds like NM cable (aka: Romex), the stuff to be burried underground is UF (underground feeder - not needed above ground).  

I don't think anyone uses alum any more (unless for very specilized installs).

Check this out:

IV. Spas and Hot Tubs

680.40 General. Electrical installations at spas and hot
tubs shall comply with the provisions of Part I and Part IV
of this article.

680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs. A
clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the
purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the
recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a
point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m
(5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot
tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family
dwellings.

680.42 Outdoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed
outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II
of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B),
that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub
equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs
utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel or
panelboard shall be permitted to use flexible connections as
covered in 680.42(A)(1) and (A)(2).

(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or
liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted
in lengths of not more than 1.8 m (6 ft).

(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections
with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be
permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a
common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands
or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required
to be bonded as required in 680.26.

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another
building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling,
any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this
Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the
wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and
control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub,
or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to
an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

 

[leaky]

STL-

Good advice from Brewman and the rest of the group.  My Beachcomber (hopefully around two weeks away now....) requires a 60 amp circuit.  I pulled my wire this weekend.  As I had stated, I ran individual wound copper strands of 6 gauge, with an 8 gauge ground.  This was done because of my appprehension about the ground wire size required, and the "all in one" conduit contained a fairly small ground wire.  Hooked all the lines up to my pull box, then pushed the wires through the conduit over to the exit in the corner (this ended up being a pretty time-consuming effort to get it out of the far PVC elbow!)  I glued up the joints and elbows, and then tried to push the wires through my flex conduit.  After a lot of sweating and grunting, I had a cold one and re-thought the process.  Although 3/4" non-metallic works, with my individual strands and larger ground, it's a pretty tight fit.  I bound the wires together with electrical tape every couple of feet, and the combined friction of the wires with the conduit, along with the natural "tendency" of the flex line to coil up, prevented me from getting over about 10 feet in before it bound up, well short of the 25 feet of flex.  My solution was to spray a little silicon spray on the wires as I inserted them into the conduit, "knead" the line frequently from one end to the other, and then actually thread the conduit onto the wire.  The natural coiled reinforcement of the conduit allows you to essentially screw it on the wire until you get to your hard fittings.  Now all that remains for me is to change out the new breaker in the panel, hook the wires up to it, and then trim everything to the requied length prior to hook up when my spa arrives!

Greg