Where does the neutral go?

[leaky]

Brewman and others,

Just when I thought I was ready for delivery....

Finalizing my wire run last night, I checked my 60 amp breaker that I need to put in my panel, and there are only terminals for two wires on each side.  It is a GE, that snaps into the panel with a horizontal clip on one side and a vertical on the other.  All the wiring diagrams I have come across describe connecting the neutral from the spa to the neutral on the breaker, with a jumper from the breaker to the bus bar in the panel.

Where do I go from here?  Do I need to return this breaker and find one with three terminals?

Thanks,

Greg

[Chas]

The wiring you describe is correct for a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) type of breaker: very important that you be sure you have that type of breaker if that's what you need.

A GFCI breaker has a 'test' button, and yes, it will have a white wire coming out of it - permanently attached - which is usually coiled up and already stripped. That 'pigtail' goes to the neutral bus bar in the panel, and yes: the neutral wire that goes over to the spa must be attached to a "neutral" lug on the breaker.

Easiest way to tell if you have a GFI breaker - the price. A regular breaker can be around $10 while a GFCI breaker can go as high as $200 depending on brand. Also, of course, the 'test' button.

These are the only pictures I could fine which were not huge - but you should get the idea:

[Chas]

After all that, I just re-read your post and saw that you said the 60 amp breaker is going in your panel.

Do you have a sub panel or other GFI device between the main panel and the spa? Does the spa itself have a GFI built in? If so, then you are fine to have a non-GFI breaker in the main panel.

What brand of tub are we wiring here?

(Should have asked that right off, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet )

[leaky]

Chas,

No problem.  I've got my Pepsi finished (my form of coffee), but was at work before 5:00, so I may not be overly awake either.

Model is a Beachcomber 730.  As I haven't gotten the pre-delivery instructions yet, I don't know whether there are any breakers in the spa or not, but my assumption is no.

Per my discussions with Brewman, I connected the spa wires to a 60 amp, non-fused pull box that I installed on the side of the house about 8 feet from the spa.  The lines from this go directly to the main circuit breaker panel.

[Chas]

Well, I think they have a GFI on the side of the control box. I went to this URL to download the owners manual, but it didn't open and I have to get to the store. Give it a try:

http://www.beachcomberhottubs.com/downloads.cfm

If there is a GFI on the side of the control box as I suspect, then you don't need a GFCI breaker at your main panel.

If there is no GFI on the side of the spa's control box, then you need to provide GFCI protection somehow. Price a GFCI breaker for you main panel, but also look at the various 'spa box' units available - they contain a high-current GFI and a relay to shut off all three wires, and in some cases they are less expensive than the breaker for your panel.

This unit, if needed, would take the place of the non-fused pull box.

[HotTubMan]

Model is a Beachcomber 730.  As I haven't gotten the pre-delivery instructions yet, I don't know whether there are any breakers in the spa or not, but my assumption is no.

The Beachcomber does not have a built in breaker

Per my discussions with Brewman, I connected the spa wires to a 60 amp, non-fused pull box that I installed on the side of the house about 8 feet from the spa.  The lines from this go directly to the main circuit breaker panel.

Will there be a way to turn off the tub from the backyard? If not, may I suggest that your sub panel be outside or get a "switch box". You dont want to have to take the day off work, or give your dealer a key to your house in the event of a service call. Also makes it more convenient for water changes or nuissance electrical disruptions where you need to turn the power off and on again.

[leaky]

HTM,

The "pull box" provides the location to cut power to the spa, so that won't be an issue.  What the box doesn't provide is the "interceptor" portion of the GFI acronym.  I will check out if there is a GFI in the control box of the spa.  If not, I can replace the pull box with a GFI "spa box".  I saw one at HD, but it was only for 50 amps.  I recall one of the informed on this forum tell me that Lowe's has a 60 amp one for about $80.  I just hope that I don't have to rework the effort I just put in.  It may just be worth putting the expensive GFI in my main panel....

[stl-rex]

Lowes carriers the 60 amp Spa box for $80.  I saw it this weekend.  They have a 50 amp Spa box also, same price I believe.

[drprwnap]

leaky,
I have been looking at what I need for electrical hook up also.  I discovered a spa disconnect that comes with a 50 GFCI in the box (what I need) for $100.  The GFCI breaker for the panel in my house is $150.  You might want to check into that.

drprwnap  

[leaky]

Downloaded the PDF file from Beachcomber, and the quote is, "The tub must be hooked up to a GFCI by a licensed electrician."  This tells me that there is no GFI in the spa control box.  

It also states, "In addition bonding lugs are provided.  To reduce the risk of shock, connect the bonding lugs in accordance with the local electrical code.  At least two lugs are provided on the external surface of the supply terminal box.  To reduce the risk of electrical shock conncect the local binding grid in the area of the hot tub to these terminals with a copper conductor not smaller than #6AWG. (Note: this is done at the factory)."

To my knowledge, there are no "local binding grids" anywhere around my tub.  Is this saying that my ground wire I ran along with my others is insufficient?  And when it states that this is done at the factory, what exactly is it that is done?

[Brewman]

My 60 amp breaker didn't have a neutral terminal, either.  I'm not sure if any of them do, mine was a Square D.  My spa (Optima) didn't require a neutral wire in the circuit, so I attached my 2 hots to the terminals on the GFI breaker, and ran the curly white wire on the GFI breaker to the neutral buss on my main panel.  
As for bonding, I ran a bare solid uninsulated ground wire from the bonding lug on my spa to to the water spigot on the back of the house, as it was close enough to the spa to require bonding.  

Brewman

[leaky]

Just got back from Home Depot.  The biggest GFCI breaker they had was 50 amp.  They were around $70.  I'll need to check another electircal store near my house and see if they have what I need.

As I will probably need the neutral wire in my circuit, I will have to find a breaker that has a terminal for it.  

I have two "metal" sources for bonding: A water spigot that is about four feet away from my electical stub; and a natural gas line that runs to my BBQ island which is only a few inches.  Do I now need to try and snake a solid copper wire through my conduit that is now occupied by all my other wires, and attach it to the gas line?  Is this required by NEC?

[Chas]

Be very clear: a GFCI breaker will most definitely have a neutral connector and a pigtail.

Also - don't confuse grounding with bonding. Your ground wire should run from the spa all the way back to your main panel's ground bar. It should not be interrupted by any pull box, sub panel or spa shut off box you install between spa and main panel.

Bonding means that you run a wire from the 'bonding' lugs/terminal of the spa - usually on the OUTSIDE of the control box - to any metal objects in the area of the spa. This would include such things as metal fences, patio covers, downspouts, door frames, pool equipment, cast bronze statues of Chas, etc.

[Brewman]

Not to be argumentative, but my Square D 60 amp GFI breaker absolutely does not have a neutral terminal on it.  It is absolutely a GFI breaker, no question.
It has the 2 terminals for the hots, and the white pigtail, but nowhere to attach a neutral wire to it.  I thought it was strange too, and when I compared it to the identical brand/model 50 amp GFI, there definately was a neutral terminal on the 50.  It probably accounted for why my 60 amp breaker was about $15 cheaper than the same model/brand 50 amper.  
The Square D series (the pro line, not the homeline) was the only 60 amp GFI I could find, so I never saw another model to compare to.
Brewman

[leaky]

Man, not only am I causing controversy, but worse, I'm getting confused!

My pull box that I installed has a ground wire connection in the center.  This link shows a picture of the unit itself.

http://www.bussmann.com/library/bifs/3116.PDF

I have connected my #8 ground to this terminal as well as that of the conduit coming from my main panel.  The ground from the conduit at the panel is connected to the ground/neutral bus.  I assume that this does not "technically" interrupt my ground path to the main panel.

What I now need to do is run another "bonding" wire through my PVC and wrap it around my natural gas line?