Electrical Preparation-now what?.....

[leaky]

Okay electrical gurus-

After finalizing my Beachcomber 530 sales agreement yesterday, I went home to look into my electrical situation.  Turns out that when I paid my contractor to "wire a circuit for future spa installation", he did just that-wire it.  I have my conduit run under the slab to the far corner of the patio, and a box in the wall with three 6 gauge wires in it, ready to plumb into a GFCI.  However, the OTHER end of the run is also just sitting in the bottom of my breaker box, hooked up to NOTHING....

And there are no slots open on my box!  As I began to panic, a couple of calls to electrical contractors before they closed revealed that this is a very common problem in my area, where the houses built in the 70s are now owned by increasingly wealthier familes who stuff them with double ovens, big spas, and oodles of power hungry electronics and lighting.  Regardless, a "box upgrade" will run in the neighborhood of $2,000 and require stucco work as well.  Talk about adding to the price...

After stopping at the Home Depot on the way home from my softball game last night, I found that the narrowest 60 amp breaker (required for my 530) is a "double wide", while there were also big triple-wide, double throw type ones as well.  My question is this:  Can I replace several of my double wide breakers in the current panel with the narrower style, thereby freeing up space in the panel?  If I do this with several of my breakers, including a 50 amp that runs the dryer, I should be able to get enough room to install the 60 amp I need for the spa.  What is the main difference between the "narrow" breakers and the "wide" ones?  If I do free up the space and insert the new breaker, am I risking overloading the main breaker?  Also, I saw the nice SPA GFCI there, but it is rated at 50 amps only.  Is there one readily available for the 60 amp rating that my new baby will require?

Sorry for the long-winded ranting, but my mechanical engineering background doesn't make me an expert on much electrical other than V=iR.

Thanks,

Greg

[velocity23]

What size service do you have 100 amp, 200 amp? IMO you are going to need atleast a 200 amp service to do what you are talking about. I run into 30 space breaker panels that are 200 amp and full. If your service is 200 you can easily free up some space by replacing  a couple breakers with tandem replacements. If you could add two tandems that would give you the space needed for the 60 amp breaker. Not the best way to do it but most certainly the cheapest and it is safe to do. Most 200 amp service panels that I see put in now a days are 42 space. Hope this helps.

[velocity23]

Oh...one more thing. I hope you have a ground ran with the three # 6 wires out to the disconnect. You can pick up a 60 amp spa disconnect from lowes for 79.00.

[Rayman]

Okay electrical gurus-

After finalizing my Beachcomber 530 sales agreement yesterday,

This has nothing to do with your electrical problem but I thought you purchased a 730??

[leaky]

Velocity,

Thanks for the info.  My box has to be 200 amp, as I recall that there is well over 100 amps worth of breakers without even trying to count them.  After running through the box in my head, my comment about the "50 amp dryer" slot turned a light bulb on.  There is a 220 outlet in my garage, over the dryer, that is never used.  I'm betting the big, double-wide 50 amp breaker in my panel is dedicated to that circuit, which is (and will stay) idle.  I'm thinking that I can remove that breaker, replace it with a 60 amp, and hook up the spa wiring to that!

Now, as far as my ground wire, I'm not positive.  I'll check when I get home out at the disconnect, but from what I saw in the panel box yesterday, there were only three wires: black, white, and red.

[leaky]

Rayman,

You're right.  It is the 730.  I'm downgrading and haven't even received it yet!  I did do another dry test yesterday while the salesman was on the phone, and was getting anxious just sitting there!  Delivery should be in about 3 weeks.

[Brewman]

Velocity,

Thanks for the info.  My box has to be 200 amp, as I recall that there is well over 100 amps worth of breakers without even trying to count them.  After running through the box in my head, my comment about the "50 amp dryer" slot turned a light bulb on.  There is a 220 outlet in my garage, over the dryer, that is never used.  I'm betting the big, double-wide 50 amp breaker in my panel is dedicated to that circuit, which is (and will stay) idle.  I'm thinking that I can remove that breaker, replace it with a 60 amp, and hook up the spa wiring to that!

Now, as far as my ground wire, I'm not positive.  I'll check when I get home out at the disconnect, but from what I saw in the panel box yesterday, there were only three wires: black, white, and red.

Don't determine your electrical service by counting up the amperage rating on the breakers.  It doesn't work that way.  You need to determine if you have 60, 100, 200 or ? service feed.  What does the main breaker(s) have on them?  
The breaker rating is there to protect the wire on the circuit from overheating, not an indicator of the demand on the circuit.

Your tap breaker needs to be a 240 V, and will take up 2 full size slots from what I've seen.  You can also install your GFI spa breaker in that panel, and just use an unfused, 60 amp rated C/A pull box near your spa for the required shutoff.  Either way is acceptable, your choice.  But either option will require you to have two adjacent empty spots in your panel.  Whatever breakers you get, be sure they are rated for use in your panel.  They must be approved, not just fit in the slot.  This is especially important for the narrow piggyback breakers.


Option 1-  See if you can replace some of your existing single pole breakers with the thin ones, which you can put two in the space of one.  This assumes they are made and approved for your panel.  

Option 2- Remove non used breakers, and cap off the wires in the main panel.

Option 3- Have a sub panel installed to make more space.  You'd still need to free up room for a double pole 240v breaker in your main panel, so you may have to move some existing breakers to the sub panel.

All of the above assumes you have adequate power left over to hook in a spa circuit.  Also, depending on code in your area, you may be required to also have a GFI protected 120v standard outlet between 10' and 20' from your spa.  So take that into account as another breaker slot if you need to add that.  

There are 60 amp GFI breakers out there, but 50 ampers are way more common.  

If you have 60 amp service, you'd almost certainly need a service upgrade.  If you have 100, you may, depending on how much demand you have already, and if you have 200 amp service, you're probably ok unless you really have some high draw thinigs like electric heat, water heater, A/C, etc....  

Brewman

[leaky]

Brewman,

"Printable" advice, as always.  My only real draw is a new double convection oven, which has its own dedicated 220v 40 amp slot.  Near the ocean, so no air conditioning, and both the water and furnace are gas.  I remember looking at the main breakers, and don't recall any rating being on them.

I'm curious as to why I would need a standard 120v GFI protected outlet near the spa?  Its not an issue, as I have new outlets in the addition anyway, but I'd like to know what the purpose may be?

Two more questions:  How do you tell if a breaker is approved rather than just able to fit, and what exactly is the 60 amp rated C/A pull box you spoke of?

[Brewman]

The NEC requires that outlet for spas, and possibly pools, because they figure that we'll be dragging out radios, TV's, PC's, Microwave ovens, and the like to the spa, and they want the outlet far enough away from the spa to be safe, and not so far away that we have extension cords running amok.  Any outdoor outlet has to be GFI'd by code.  You'd only need that outlet if your inspector says so.  Just something to keep in mind.

Somewhere in your electrical panel you should see a list of the breakers that panel has approve for use in that panel.  Look behind the panel door for some sort of stick on label.  Otherwise, you'd have to contact the panel mfg, or some other reliable source to see about the compatibility issue.  If you have Square D, GE, ITE, Siemens, or similar, you should be okay.  
Don't rely on the advice from a Home Depot employee on this.  They've given me horribly wrong advice before.

A non fused pull box is what is used to cut power to a central air conditioner, which doesn't need a GFI protected circuit.  This box has no breaker or fuse, just a handle to pull out to cut the power.  They cost around $10 at any big box store like Home Depot.  

The advantage is that you'll save a few bucks by not having to buy a 50 or 60 tap breaker for you main panel, and a 50 or 60 amp GFI breaker for next to the spa.  
The disadvantage of this setup is that the GFI breaker isn't next to the spa, which may cause a bit of work if you need service- the repairman would need access to your main panel to diagnose breaker tripping problems, etc...  
Since I won't let anyone access my property without someone being home, I don't consider it a problem, my indoor GFI breaker is only about 25' from the spa.
Either way is acceptable, your choice.
Brewman

[velocity23]

Code does not require a receptacle to be installed for the  spa however if you do have a receptacle by the spa code requires that it be atleast 10' away and be a gfi.

[leaky]

Thanks Brewman!

My preliminary plan, then, would be to check my box and see what kind of breakers are approved for the panel.  I'll then verify that the double-slot 50 amp breaker is being unused, cap off the wires, and install the approved 60 amp breaker for the spa.  At the disconnect, I can install the "non-fused pull box", and then run my wires through the conduit to the back of the spa, through some flex line, and into the power hook up.

That means I won't have to spring for both the breaker AND the 60 amp GFI box near the spa.

What diameter flex line is usually used?  And if, as Velocity noted, there isn't an additional ground wire along with my other three, do I need to try and snake a 6 gauge ground wire all the way through my conduit?

[tootall]

Why not in your main load center stack your breakers? it is a cheap and easier way of doing things and it is NEC ok.  So, check in to that.

[leaky]

Tootall,

Not sure what your message means.....

[Brewman]

I think he means doing the slim breaker route.

Sounds like removing an unused 240v breaker will meet your needs, though, and without the trouble and expense of the thin breakers.

double check on your wiring.  Or ask your electrician what he had in mind when he wired.  Your black and red wires are your hots, and your white is a neutral.  Your ground wire has to be insulated green, and if you don't have one you'll need one.  Your electrician should be able to help you there- he did the work so if he gooed he should fix it.  But maybe it's okay- he should be able to explain what he did and why.

Use 3/4" conduit, including the flex.  To meet code, total length of the flex has to be 6' or less.  Use either schedule 40 or 80 electrical pvc, then transition to the flex.  You'll need the correct connector to attach the flex to the panel inside your spa.  

Brewman

[leaky]

I planned on running the flex line around the bottom of the tub to the entrance hole.  If it needs to be 6' or less, that means I can't even run it the length of one side of the tub!  I guess I'll have to run the sched. 80 pvc (which is coming out of the slab now) most of the way and secure it with clamps until I transition to the flex line.