Lower bromine with ozonator?

[J._McD]

I don't have the extensive knowledge that Bill has but .....Ozone is a gas to my knowledge. It's chemical composition is 3 oxygen atoms.

It doesn't "seek and destroy", it needs to bump into the bugs to be effective……..It needs to be at a certain concentration to allow enough ozone atoms to bump into the bugs to destroy them. ……..Can they work - I believe they can……I run it for the "just in case" syndrome - IF it does anything……I still rely on chlorine to do it's part and at 2-3 ppm, it's effective. And by the time I get back into my tub, I'm usually soaking in close to 0 chlorine

EXACTLY But, is an atom a chemical, thus if I have 3 like atoms, do I have 3 separate measurements of  a chemical?  I agree and accept your observations and I should change my term to “contact and destroy”.  The “IF” factor and the “just in case” factor is certainly understandable and appropriate.

[Vinny]

Oxygen is an chemical element in the periodic table so ... I would think that an free oxygen atom is part of a chemical.

To that I would say YES it is a chemical.

[J._McD]

 

I simply take exception to people (dealers mostly) that lead consumers to beleive that an ozonator or salt system results in a "chemical free" environment.
Ozone is a chemical, but you are right it does dissolve in the water quickly. It does not add to TDS directly like a granular oxidizer does…Using an ozonator, especially on a 24 hour circ pump, will raise pH which will result in more chemicals to fix the pH. It is true also that some granular oxidizers will also change pH (MPS 2.3, Lithchlor 10.. Dichlor and its bromine cousin are pH neutral (7).

I would like to cover just a few points that have been made in this thread.
Bromine is not pH neutral, it is quite acidic.
The cost savings from ozonators has never been quantified, documented, or published in any credible journal as far as I know……. An ozonator is nice to have anyway.  It is another tool in our arsenal of tools to control bacteria.  
Ozone or O3 is not very easily dissolved in water.  And it bubbles out and is lost quickly to the atmosphere.  O3 is not stable so it does not stay as O3 for long.  It is looking to get rid of that extra oxygen atom and to revert to the inherently stable O2 that we breathe.  What makes it such a powerful oxidizer is exactly that it is eager to give up it's extra oxygen atom.  It could be said to be an extremely aggressive chemical.  There is no more reactive oxidizer known.  

Regards,

Bill  

For the record, ozone is pH neutral and will not raise the pH of water.  

I do NOT believe ozone will support a “chemically FREE” environment, BUT, it will SUBSTANTIALLY reduce the need for chemical sanitizers, oxidizers, as well as other chemicals used to conteract other water conditions.

Whether ozone is a chemical or not remains to be a point of conjecture, BUT it does NOT dissolve in water, because it is a derivative of oxygen, which is a gaseous form of air.  It MUST be “smashed” into the tiniest, smallest, water soluble little air bubbles to remain in suspension within the water to come in contact with mineral, nutrients, bacteria and viruses to do exactly what you say, attract a “like atom” from those forms of other matter, thus oxidizing them and sanitizing the water.

Because the gaseous form of ozone or oxygen, it will not remain "disolved" in the water which is what chemicals do, thus TDS.  It will eventually “bubble” to the surface and become airborne, thus all the controversy regarding “off gassing”.

As Bill states, “An ozonator is nice to have anyway.  It is another tool in our arsenal of tools to control bacteria”, is that because it works?

“O3 is not stable so it does not stay as O3 for long.  It is looking to get rid of that extra oxygen atom and to revert to the inherently stable O2 that we breathe.” Get rid of or, is it looking to attract a “like atom” so as to render the other molecule oxidized or sanitized?  While I believe it gives up or surrenders an atom to form oxygen, it is actually “attracting” a like atom from another molecule to become 2 stable molecules of oxygen eventually going airborne.  

However, if there are no other molecules of mineral, nutrient, bacteria or viruses contained within the water the water is in its purist form,  and it remains to be a gaseous form of an air bubble, it will go airborne and remain an active molecule of ozone until such time it “contacts and destroys” another molecule extracting a like atom.  

THUS, the fear of "off gassing" and inhaling ozone which could be considered a carcinogen like chlorine.  Let me think about that, do we ever absorb or consume chlorine?  Isn't is also a carcinogen?

[tootall]

reading this I do have to say in my own limited knowlege of things. Ozone does work well. I bought a Marquis Epic. All of them have a Ozonator built in to the price. From what I understand If you go to the Marquis web site it shows how it works the Ozonator is only on during the filter cycles. it has a mixing chamber to let the O3 move back to o2 to prevent off gassing. Just having Ozone is not enough minerals and bromide still must be used. My Marquis dealer told me to make sure I increase the filter times and decrease the level of bromine to .05 ppm I still have to wait to see if this stands true. Waiting for hand to heal and get my pad set up etc...

[Mercure]

If ozone is a more powerful oxidizer, sanitizer than di-chlor or bromine, then why is it that we must use chlorine or bromine if we were able to introduce the proper amount of ozone?  

The limitation of ozone is not the quantity but is location. When the bubbles come out of the mixing chamber, there is no ozone anymore.  When you use Chlorine, some of it kill bugs and oxydize stuff. If you add more Chlorine than what is needed to oxydize everything, than you have some residual chlorine that stay in the water and wait for the next job.
But no matter what kind of ozonator you have, there is no residual ozone in your tub.
Imagine two person in your tub.  Some bug could travel from one body to the other before it get caught in the water intake of your ozonator.
Another problem is that some bugs could stick on the side of your tub and multiply there without being exposed to ozone.
That's why you need chlorine or bromine as a residual sanitizer.

[Mercure]

Whether ozone is a chemical or not remains to be a point of conjecture,

Yes, that was my point.

BUT it does NOT dissolve in water, because it is a derivative of oxygen, which is a gaseous form of air.

Gazes can be dissolve in water.  There a lot of CO2 in a Coke bottle.
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question446.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question101.htm

However, if there are no other molecules of mineral, nutrient, bacteria or viruses contained within the water the water is in its purist form,  and it remains to be a gaseous form of an air bubble, it will go airborne and remain an active molecule of ozone until such time it “contacts and destroys” another molecule extracting a like atom.  

I don't think so.  It can just become oxygen again:
3 O2 <=> 2 O3
In the corona discharge, three molecule of oxygen (O2)become two molecule of  ozone (O3).  Two molecule of ozone (O3) can become back three molecule of oxygen.
This explanation is a short cut.  More details here:
http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~owen/METO123/OZHOLE/lecture.html
I don't have statistics or a proof, but I think that most of the ozone that have not been "used" become oxygen before exiting the mixing chamber.  That's make the device safer in the eyes of the people who think that breathing ozone is bad.
There's a debate about the effect of ozone on health. Personally I just don't know.  But I tend too believe that the tubs with ozone are safe because there's not so much of it that escape the mixing chamber.

[mxw128]

 BUT it does NOT dissolve in water, because it is a derivative of oxygen, which is a gaseous form of air.  

Actually air is mostly Nitrogen, (about 78%), with only about 21% Oxygen (and 1 % other junk).  So we can't say that "oxygen is a gaseous form of air." it's only a component of it..  (I wouldn't scuba with 100%compressed  O2!)  

[NE-Phil]

My Marquis dealer told me to make sure I increase the filter times and decrease the level of bromine to .05 ppm I still have to wait to see if this stands true. Waiting for hand to heal and get my pad set up etc...

Tootall,
Sorry to hear about your hand. I hope it heals quickly.
I've noted your post with interest as my Marquis dealer didn't have much to say about the ozonator and wants me to keep my frog bromine cartridge set to 4 - at least for now because it is a new install (8 days ago). So for the last week, my tendency is to add the dry bromine if the test strip shows its low but now I'm wondering whether or not I need to keep it up to that level.
If I can keep the bromine level lower - so much the better.

Anyone is welcome to chime in here: when I take the cover off there is a chemical smell but its not strong. It would be wonderful to have no smell at all. Is that realistic? I keep seeing the phrase, "Clean, clear water with an invitation to drink" and that it should not smell. Does that mean no chemical smell at all? As in NYET, NADA, NIHA, NEIN, etc.?
Thanks,

Phil

[Spatech_tuo]

Anyone is welcome to chime in here: when I take the cover off there is a chemical smell but its not strong. It would be wonderful to have no smell at all. Is that realistic?

If you want to soak with less of a "chemical smell", I highly suggest you do away with bromine altogether as by nature it'll always seem that way with that method. If you switch to a Nature 2 type system (chlorine based) you will probably be much happier. I've seen people switch many times and wish they'd done so sooner after seeing the difference. Chlorine does not stay in hot water long so you add after you get out and it does its job and dissipates whereas bromine maintains a constant level making it seem like your bathing in a chemical soup (IMO).

[Mendocino101]

I mentioned in an earlier post about the minerals along with ozone as in todays spa world many folks are going this way ....again my question to those who with more experience is not the cost savings, as that has already been debated and think it is reasonable to say that while perhaps using less bromine or DI chlior that alone will not offset the cost of an ozonator, the real benefit is the lower ppm ....and that means less odor, easier on skin and, suits, covers, etc .... I think as it has been mentioned that the advantage to ozone and again I throw in minerals, (frog, N-2, etc) is making water care easier and using less of the harsher sanitizer no matter its form .....

[NE-Phil]

If you want to soak with less of a "chemical smell", I highly suggest you do away with bromine altogether as by nature it'll always seem that way with that method.

Any bromine zealots want to argue this? Does a spa using bromine always have a chemical smell?
Why would anyone want to use bromine if there is always an odor?  Is it cheaper or a better sanitizer than dichlor?

Phil

[Mendocino101]

Phil,

with bromine you have a residual most of the time it is used with a feeder of some type so you do not have to spoon feed your spa after use ...for many it can be almost like a set and forget it thing...which by the way is of course not the best action ....

[Spatech_tuo]

Phil,

with bromine you have a residual most of the time it is used with a feeder of some type so you do not have to spoon feed your spa after use ...for many it can be almost like a set and forget it thing...which by the way is of course not the best action ....

True, Bromine allows you to skip the add per use while chlorine allows you to sit without a clothes pin on your nose (maybe I'm exaggerating a bit). You can try both but I find about 83% of the people that have done both prefer the chlorine method.

[tootall]

As for what my dealer has told me is to increase the filter time thats when the Ozone is used. Have to mineral stick wide open 8 and the bromine open to 2 or 1. his store is busy and non of his tubs have a chemical smell so what it's worth I think the spa frog and ozone works just have to wait and see for myself. maybe I will change my opinon who knows?

[J._McD]

Any bromine zealots want to argue this? Does a spa using bromine always have a chemical smell?
Why would anyone want to use bromine if there is always an odor?  Is it cheaper or a better sanitizer than dichlor?
 
Phil

Bromine has a pH balance of 6.2 - 6.5 (someone can correct the number if it is wrong) but, it is below 7.2 - 7.6 where we want to keep the water.

Anything you SMELL off of the water is a gaseous form and an indication that your pH is out of balance.  Bromine will continiously pull pH down because of it low pH and contributes to the cause of smell, gas off the water.