Insulation too efficient...?

[Bigbender]

I'm sure that you don't hear this comment too often but now that hot weather is here in Pa. (90's), we're having a problem keeping the heat "out of the water". We turned the temperature setting back for the summer so the water could cool us off but the circulation pumps are creating enough heat on their own that they've actually increased the water temp to 105 degrees.

I sure don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the efficiency of the insulation because it saves me a lot of heater time during the winter months but I believe this may be a slight dis-advantage to the Thermolock™ Technology used in the Coleman tubs. I don't want to cut back on the circulation settings so I guess I'll lift the lid and have it open like a swimming pool.

Do they sell diving boards for these things

[Backpains]

Ok so your tub has the thermo lock by coleman, so does it have a standard, sleep and economy mode? cause I was told if you put it on economy mode the heater will only operate during filtration cycles and the pump will circulate approx. two min several times throughout the day to sample the water.

Hope this helps

Backpains

[jsimo7]

I had the same problem with my HS Envoy the water got to 106 degrees. I put a water bottle under each corner of the cover to hold it open a few inches and it brought the temp down to 101 in 10hrs

[leesweet]

From what I read in the Sundance manual, it (Maxxus, even though I don't have one yet, sigh...) has the economy/summer mode, also.  This one appears to be automatic:  if the water gets hot enough, it will switch off the circ pump and ozonator except for a 2 hour filtrator daily filtrator cycle to reduce heat input.

Anyway, same thing as the previous post:  You can use a summer/economy mode to reduce heat input, or open the cover to increase heat loss; other suggestions I've seen here are to insert ice in frozen plastic bottles to get the water to usable temperature levels.  I like that answer, since if you want to use it, it's hard/hot when the air temp is 100, the water is the same, and you aren't getting any fun from the spa!

[spahappy]

Bigbender you're right it's nice to hold that heat in, for the 10 months out of the year that we Northerners have winter LOL.

Here are some steps you can do to decrease heat creep.

1. Turn you spa to the sleep mode which will allow it to lose 20 degrees from set temp.

2. Reprogram your filter times to run in the coolest part of the day and evening. For instance your am or first filter could run from 5:00 am to 8:00 or 9:00 am. Your pm or filter two could run from say 10:00 or 11:00pm to 1:00 or 2:00 am or whatever length suits your useage.

3. Tonight let the excess heat off the water by putting a folded towel under the cover. This will create enough of a gap to let the heat escape, and not let every creepy night bug in the area seek out your spa. Make sure you can still fasten your cover should a storm come up.

Hope this helps.


Spahappy

[Vinny]

I have my spa set for 98 and it's at 100 and when all the pumps are on, it can hit 101. Tub is only a week old and as Spahappy said - I'm glad it's that efficient for the winter!

Since it has a huge 24 hour circ pump, I guess it's acting as a pump on low speed filtering mode and my summer mode is me turning down the heat to 98.

Look at the bright side - the heater isn't kicking on so look how much money your saving!  

[Backpains]

Exactly what vinny said! Mine does the same thing I have it set at 98 and I just got out of it 100 degrees is what it read, but then again I was on  a flitration cycle too. Anyway I just throw a couple of bottles of frozen water in, that way hubby and I can have some cold water while we are in the tub too   always a plus with the hubby!

[Bigbender]

Spahappy,
I read about the mode options in the manual but it doesn't explain the differences very clearly. With my tub set to run in the Standard mode, the circulator pump is running in warm weather without the word "Heat" visible on the control panel so I'm assuming that a thermostat is telling it to stay off. I'm curious as to how the Sleep mode is going to be different ?  

Setting the circulator cycles for the cooler time of day settings is a great idea. I'll make that change tomorrow. Is there a trick to keeping clean water with two-four hour circ times? I went from 6-4 during the winter months and before long, my water started giving me problems.
Mike

[ebirrane]

If it is in a sunny place, I would bet that most of it is the sun.  I own a HS, set the temp for 90 this summer (mini-pool for my 7-year old nephew).  After a week Ichecked it and the temp was 100, according to the little floating thermometer we have.  

The circ pump is not heating the temp by 10 degrees and the heater is not on.

Propping the cover, or even just taking it off 30 minutes before you get in should help.  Even running the pumps for 20-30 minutes should cool it down.  With the heater off, the pumps won't generate enough heat to compensate for what you lose out of an uncovered tub.
-
Ed

[leesweet]

Not to beat a dead horse, but from an engineering point of view, I have to agree here...  with just a circ pump, there is virtually no heat transfer from the pump.  But on a summer day, there is a lot of heat 'insolation' (not insulation) added from the rays of the sun beating down on the spa/cover.

You almost wish they had an actual cooling cycle for when it gets as hot as it's been outside, even in Northern Virginia (we've had 90-95 temps for the last month or so, not the usual for May/June!).

I conjecture you are 'expected' to have the spa for the fall and spring (and winter) and a pool with 70 degree water for the 95 degree summer.  
 (Sorry, I don't have the room, money, or muscles for a pool...)

[Spatech_tuo]

with just a circ pump, there is virtually no heat transfer from the pump.  

Actually, circ pumps running 24/7 add heat to a spa very noticeably. The ones I've seen are very efficient at transferring their heat, which is why the summer timer mode on spas with that setup shut off the circ pump for x hrs/day when people can't get their water temp down to their setpoint.

[SerjicalStrike]

The Sundance Laing pump is water cooled, so almost all of the heat it is producing is getting transfered to the water.  I heard a figure of 87%, but I have never been able to confirm that.  The Sundance "Summer Mode" starts automatically at 95 degrees, so sometimes you can set the tub at 80 and it will maintain 95 just from the circ pump running.  Depending on the year, you can adjust the time the circ. pump runs from 2hrs (even at 0, it runs a 2 hr. purge at midnight) all the way to 24hrs.  Turning down the circulation pump and reducing the amount of filter time will reduce the amount of heat transfered to the water.  

A circulation pump can most defintitely heat the water 10 degrees.

[Spatech_tuo]

A circulation pump can most defintitely heat the water 10 degrees.

Many times customers with a circ pump spas have turned their spas on after a refill or at startup and the water heats up to about 80º or so but no further. They assume since it did heat up some that the heater was energized. All along the issue was the heater was not energized and the heating they saw was simply from the circ pump but fooled them and all along they needed to reset their heater or maybe its a spa where the heater has a separate breaker and that has to be reset. Many circ pumps can be VERY efficient at transferring their heat depending on the type used.

[spahappy]

Spahappy,
I read about the mode options in the manual but it doesn't explain the differences very clearly. With my tub set to run in the Standard mode, the circulator pump is running in warm weather without the word "Heat" visible on the control panel so I'm assuming that a thermostat is telling it to stay off. I'm curious as to how the Sleep mode is going to be different ?  

Setting the circulator cycles for the cooler time of day settings is a great idea. I'll make that change tomorrow. Is there a trick to keeping clean water with two-four hour circ times? I went from 6-4 during the winter months and before long, my water started giving me problems.
Mike

Standard mode will maintain the set temp to whatever it's set for.

Economy mode will heat only when the spa is in a filter cycle. The spa will monitor the water temp several times a day and won't allow the spa to lose more than 20 degrees below set temp. If you're in a routine and use your spa at the same times everyday you can program the filter cycles to start about an hour before your soak so it's up to temp for you.

Sleep mode will allow the spa to lose and maintain a temp of 20 degrees below set temp all the time it's in that mode. This is handy for when you go on vacation and don't want to maintain higher temps while gone.

Lets say you want your water at 99 degrees and you're in economy..The spa temp may go below that between filter times but as soon as it starts to filter the heator will kick on to raise the temp to 99 degrees. But the thermal lock is also trapping the heat in, and so while the heater came on to raise the temp, you'lll experience heat creep because the thermal lock would have been enough to raise the temp.

In the sleep mode the spa may lose a few degrees between filter cycles but when the filter cycle comes on the heater won't and so you're just dealeing with the thermal lock heat.

Your AM and PM filter cycles don't have to be the same duration. If you have heavier use in the evening set the filter cycles to run 4 to5 hours then, and 3 to 4 hours in the morning.

During the heaviest use I think it's important program the spa to filter about the time you get out. It takes about 30 minutes for oil and water to separate. We have oil in our skin, makeup, hair gel, deoderant ect. So when this happens it make sense to have the spa start to filter.

I hope this makes sense I'm running on very little sleep because of nightly severe storms for the last 5 nights up here. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

Spahappy

[leesweet]

Hm... I think perhaps some testing is needed here...  I still think (I sure can be wrong, don't misread me...) that a 1/20 HP pump (what SD uses in 800 series... dunno what others use) would have a hard time heating up cold water that much. (Especially compared to the heat of the sun, and especially when we wait so long for cold water to heat up using a many KW heater when we refill!)

Are we really getting to a consensus that the 24/7 fractional HP circ pumps add that much heat?  I'm willing to be convinced, but didn't think it was so...

You'd think if this was such a prevalent problem, there would be a better means to vent the heat/cool it down besides just 'summer/economy' modes, which only stop the pumps, and don't actually cool anything.