Optima Prices?

[J._McD]

Well Drewstar, I respect your comments and your opinions.  I even appreciate your thought provoking approaches.  But I will tell you this and you are not required to to believe me, my company makes less $'s and the customer gets more product, at a higher cost of goods sold, and he pays the same, thus the customer benefits.  

At this point, I don't care how you see it, or your point of view, nothing personal, but you will probably never be influenced by me, because it is YOUR OPINION and your perspective, I am the retailer and through your eyes that makes me evil.

You say, "THERE IS NO SALE.  This is deceptive.  It's not a true sale. Yes, it happens a lot and is not unique to the Spa industry. Still, that doesn't make it right. It's an old trick."

It is not a trick, it is marketing and there is not one product being sold to consumers that does not attempt to attract the consumers attention with "claims", this is marketing.

If I make less $'s on a sale today because I include more in the "cost of goods" I would consider that to be a financial benefit to my consumer.  The sellers purpose is to sell more units and profit on the increased number of unit sales.  Unknowingly, you succumb to this marketing ploy every day for everything you spend money on.  

You too are subject to marketing influence.  And, IMHO, more likely to buy from a liar than an honest man.  They seem to know better on how to color the truth.  An honest person is an honest person, and as one, I have watched many fools walk out the door to be sucked in on rebates and other lies.

It is not my intent to prove you right or wrong, only to say, If I get fewer $'s and the consumer gets more material product for his $'s, no matter how you look at it, somehow you see me as not being honest with my customer and actually cheating him out of something.  

You say, "Great Quotes:" then you quote my words for what purpose I am not sure.  They are my points of view and the reason we do not advertise.  But I know you are right, because I have witnessed those that do what I say in these quotes, they outsell me 6 to 1.  So does that mean that advertising works or that the shopping consumer is gullible? Are you angy with me for this?

"You must LIE to the consuming public to attract their attention"  

"To advertise you must make outlandish claims that are not truthful"

"Guess what, there are a lot of losers out there and they are all consumers"

"I seriously do question your understanding, by all the indications you don’t.  Why should you find it demeaning, until you have walked in my shoes, do not judge me? "

Drew, I really believe you are a nice person intending to goad me.  I will accept the fact that we have a differing view and neither of us is a bad person for what we do.  I do my best every day to do the right thing, and deep inside, I believe you do to.  

You are just testing my integrity and challenging me with your perceptions and beliefs.  You know in you own mind that you have never been right 100% of the time.  I think this is one of those times that maybe, just maybe, there is a good person out there that represents a different point of view, who's ulterior motive is not to cheat you or others.  Just Maybe.

[drewstar]

No. I am not goading you.  I'm trying as a consumer to share the experiences in a common forum.

Please don't use the words "Evil" and "Liar"  You seem to think I am attacking you and to be honest I amnot.

Perhaps I am a bit defensive because in other posts, you've claimed I was an Artic Salesman, and in another you mocked my opion of my experience.  Huh. What's up with that?  At least it's good that there is this forum where we can both speak our minds. At the end of the Day J_McD it's just a forum.



Do you see my point about a Manufactuers deal versus you in-store deal?  Do you  disagree?  Yea, every dealer has the same "Sale" it's really not a sale in the eyes of the consumer.

I get from you that anything that  you sell below MSRP is "a sale".  Well, ok I guess  youre right. But you missed my point.  

I posted those quotes because I was dumbfounded by them.  Are thier good dealers and bad? Of course, but you seem to have some pretty strong opinions that makes me really wonder.. Yout think alll advertising are lies?? You think you need to  mislead the customer? You really think    all losers are consumers?

You think I am more likely to buy from a liar than an honest man?  Well,  I'm pretty sure of my own self and who I do business with, and sir, I wouldn't deal with anyone who called thier customers "Pigs"

[jsimo7]

J Mcd please read YOUR posts carefully and think about what you have stated. I think you will maybe, Just maybe wish to reconsider your opinion on customers. Maybe ,Just Maybe your customers are what you have written they are. I find that hard to belive. Most customers are honest like most dealers are honest, a few make a bad name for everyone. Read YOUR posts carefully!!

[J._McD]

Drewster, I believe you have taken me out of context; I have never referred to my customer as such.  I said, “Some people are just never happy, in short they are pigs, they want everything FREE.”  I have never had people like this as a customer.  

Jismo, I do not believe I have referred to my customers at all, but I have referenced “people” which encompasses all of humanity, a broad reference, and maybe even shoppers but not customers.  I am not always right, and God knows if I am wrong I should be corrected.  That is what we are all here for.

If I appear angry and use harsh terms in my perspective, I am sorry, I have been jaded by my experiences, as all of us have maybe in different ways.  I, like many others who remain silent, have witnessed many consumers convinced into believing what was too good to be true.  They indeed were gullible.  One such person explained to me why he did not choose to select my product.  It was because the one he did choose, included a $10,000 cash rebate that he would receive in 3 years making his purchase a net cost of $10,000 less.  I knew this not to be true.  I am sorry to say, everyone saw him as a person that had been fooled into believing it was true, in spite of what he was told.

If my harsh point of view, disturbs you or upsets you, but caution others in their shopping experiences, than I have achieved my purpose for their benefit.  If I offend all of you, then I am sorry for expressing my point of view.  It is not my intent to offend but to share my point of view, be that good, bad, or indifferent.

[Mendocino101]

What is frustrating is we are talking a lot of money here and there are no standard, advertised prices and options and every spa dealer has got some “Sale!” arrrgh.

Maybe Saturn will start selling tubs?
 

I think what was trying to be said is this ....First when Sundance is promoting the "free Stereo" it is someone in the company's marketing dept who comes up with this great idea ...what basically happens in the Spa industry is that the cost is passed on to the dealer, the justification being that they ( Sundance in this case) will drive more customers to your store while they promote the program but you as dealer still pay the cost of the stereo, if you were in the store last week....last month or yesterday and the price changed but now includes the Stereo but maybe not the lift or delivery or steps etc. ...well than that promotion ended just like they do in many retail shopping experiences ...you mention cars a whole other world from Spas....Do you know that when a rebate ends on say today at midnight and you come in want it tomorrow at 8 am when they open ....You won't get it ...unless they back date the sale to reflect todays date....do you know why ?....in cars you have a report of sale filed that goes to the state ...for all sorts of reasons ....but the point is when its over its over and by the way the Saturn and its sales process that many are so enamored with is FULL RETAIL and nothing more go to any dealer in any state and the window sticker on the car on say a  Ford lot for example is FULL RETAIL which for some great marketing reason Saturn customers feel great about paying but would never do so for another brand....Good luck in your Shopping....

[drewstar]

Please pass the stick. I think the horse is still breathing.


Dear Velocity 23

I hope this has been helpful for you in your search for “is this a good price for an Optima Hot Tub?”

As you can see, in a market where MRSPs have no reflection on actual selling prices, and determining actual average fair prices becomes an exercise in futility, you’re not going to get a straight answer.  

You see, as J-McD has clearly pointed out, sadly “There is no Free Stereo”. I know, I know, you try to determine what a fair price is, but what was on sale last week, isn’t on sale this week. And deals like a “free stereo” simply means you’ll be paying extra for your cover lifter, but just wait until next week, the dealer will be having a sale on the cover lifter and a free stereo. Unfortunately the hot tub itself has gone up in price.

Don’t try to make sense of it all. Silly, silly Hot Tub buyer. You see you don’t understand the (cough) “Nuances” (cough, cough) of the industry.

Don’t try to distinguish actual “sales” where the cost is actually removed from the fair selling price, as opposed to “SALE!” where the dealer has simply re-structured the package to give the illusion of a deal.  If you do, you will politely informed that you have no knowledge of “retail”.  Foolish consumer.

Be leery in your quest for a hot tub, as unlike other markets, because in hot tub workd “You must LIE to the consuming public to attract their attention in an ad and get them into your store.”  And “To advertise you must make outlandish claims that are not truthful”

Sigh.

Be careful, as you try to wade through the promotions and sales in an  attempt to try and actually guessthe real price, and attempt to get the best deal for your hard earned dollar, because some dealers will refer to you as a “Pig”.

How dare you ask for more than what was offered.

This forum may help you.  Why thanks to advice in here, I’ve learned that I have an irrational fear of salesmen. I’ve been diagnosed as seeing all salesmen as evil and as liars. Thankfully, I’ve started an aggressive physco-therapy program.  Why just last night between shock therapy treatments, I had a breakthrough; it seems that when my mother was pregnant with me, she was frightened by a Hot Tub salesman trying to explain Therma-pane vs. Full Foam.

I have a long road to recovery.  But with the help of this forum, I may one day lead a semi normal life.

So, Good luck Veocity23!  Perhaps a dealer here will actually post their best price for the deal you are looking for…..but don’t hold your breath.

Regards,
Drewstar

[Mendocino101]

Please pass the stick. I think the horse is still breathing.


Dear Velocity 23
As you can see, in a market where MRSPs have no reflection on actual selling prices, and determining actual average fair prices becomes an exercise in futility, you’re not going to get a straight answer.  

You see, as J-McD has clearly pointed out, sadly “There is no Free Stereo”. I know, I know, you try to determine what a fair price is, but what was on sale last week, isn’t on sale this week. And deals like a “free stereo” simply means you’ll be paying extra for your cover lifter, but just wait until next week, the dealer will be having a sale on the cover lifter and a free stereo. Unfortunately the hot tub itself has gone up in price.

Regards,
Drewstar

Drewstar,

Can you please help me me out here....But have you ever actually bought anything on Sale where the sale price had an end date...As an example say at Best Buy where they advertise something and than the ad says Sale Ends on 00/00/000 and Than in Sundays paper a new flier comes out and there is another sale ..I am confused as to why you think this is some how wrong for someone selling spas to have an end date to a sale and start something new...If what I understand what you wrote correctly what you are saying is that you want to combine a sale from last week and add to the promotion that is running this week ...So lets say where as example and this seems some what common ...with a computer they may run a free monitor one week and the next its printer but if I read you correctly you want to tell them since you had the monitor last week and its a printer this week you want them both .... Can I also ask what you mean and what is your reference is to the ...

" Please pass the stick. I think the horse is still breathing. "
Perhaps I am wrong but I got the feeling that it was in reference to what I might have wrote and if so.....Why...

[Chris_H]

Good question Mendo.  I was thinking the same thing.  I guess in the spa business sales don't end.

[obi wan]

play nice now...
this thread is starting to sound like a good candidate for the childish bickering catagory.
as the the original question, was the price good?
(BTW nothing on the entire 2nd page seems to actually address this question)
i am just a consumer who shopped and bought a tub recently. my opinion is that most high quality tubs run $7500 to $11000.
your price is in that range. if it was $500 more or less, would it make that big of a difference?
the real question is, is it worth the price to YOU and YOU ONLY!
if it is, and you really love the spa, more than other models, buy it. youll have it years and i hope you get a lot of use and happiness out of it
i personally would not buy a stereo in any spa. they are by no means bad, it is a totally personal preference. i bought a caldera for $8100 without the stereo, because i can (and did) install outdoor speakers connected to my sound system in the house. i work in the alarm /home automation industry, so i have that skill, and access to lots of "parts". you may not.
buy what you want, and what makes you happy. try not to 2nd guess yourself, climb in your tub, and think ahhhhhhhh....

[drewstar]

Drewstar,

Can you please help me me out here....But have you ever actually bought anything on Sale where the sale price had an end date...As an example say at Best Buy where they advertise something and than the ad says Sale Ends on 00/00/000 and Than in Sundays paper a new flier comes out and there is another sale ..I am confused as to why you think this is some how wrong for someone selling spas to have an end date to a sale and start something new...If what I understand what you wrote correctly what you are saying is that you want to combine a sale from last week and add to the promotion that is running this week ...So lets say where as example and this seems some what common ...with a computer they may run a free monitor one week and the next its printer but if I read you correctly you want to tell them since you had the monitor last week and its a printer this week you want them both .... Can I also ask what you mean and what is your reference is to the ...

" Please pass the stick. I think the horse is still breathing. "
 Perhaps I am wrong but I got the feeling that it was in reference to what I might have wrote and if so.....Why...

Yup. You are wrong. It wasn’t in reference to you, or anyone else here.  

I was using the beating a dead horse with a stick metaphor as I wonder if this discussion is just an exercise in futility or if we are actually seeing each other’s point?  I hope that I didn’t offend you and I wonder why you felt it was directed at you?


Re-read my comments.  The point here was about pricing from within a dealers cost and pricing with the manufacturer absorbing the cost. Do you see a difference? Do you see my point there?

Can you see how one can represent a greater value to the consumer while the dealer still makes his margin?

Do you see a difference in the above as opposed to the dealer bundling certain deals together? Yes there is money to be saved, and some deals are better than others. But for the most part, the dealers cost structure hasn’t changed and in reality, on any given day given this structure, you can get a comparable deal and package? (We’re talking hot tubs here, not Big Box).

As a consumer, don’t you think you should be aware of this, so that you know what the real deal is? Like J-McD said, there’s no free stereo. (Unless the manufacture burdens thee cost) But otherwise either you or he is going to pay for it, one way or the other. Guess who that’s going to be?  But that's ok. The issue here is the frustration I as a consumer feels, as there is no standardized pricing.

The dealer sales environment is heavily skewed in the dealers favor for pricing, much more so than other consumer markets. It can be a frustrating and confusing process for the consumer.


Sure, if all the dealers published their sales and promos on a national level just like a national chain,  I think that would be a great start.

[shabba34]

Hey guys I was just wondering what the 2005 Sundance Optimas are going for? I am located in MD and the best deal I can get is about 9900.00 Plus taxes.
That includes steps, delivery, lift cover and stereo. Am I getting taken or is this a good deal. What should I expect to pay for it? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

To retro back to the original question:  The Sundance dealer at our most recent homeshow was selling the Optima inc/steps, cd ozone, coverlifter, chems, delivery for $ 8900.00.  So if your price includes the stereo, seems comparable.

[drewstar]

To retro back to the original question:  The Sundance dealer at our most recent homeshow was selling the Optima inc/steps, cd ozone, coverlifter, chems, delivery for $ 8900.00.  So if your price includes the stereo, seems comparable.

$1000 difference.  The reason? The Steroe.  

The frustration? Sundance is promoting free steroes.

The reality? No Free Steroe.

Hence this really isn't IMHO any real "sale".  

[obi wan]

this is a small quote from mendicino(to save space):this is in no way any sort of attack, merely my opinion. no offense is intended

"As a consumer, don’t you think you should be aware of this, so that you know what the real deal is? Like J-McD said, there’s no free stereo. (Unless the manufacture burdens thee cost) But otherwise either you or he is going to pay for it, one way or the other. Guess who that’s going to be?  But that's ok. The issue here is the frustration I as a consumer feels, as there is no standardized pricing."

this really belongs in another thread but heres my 2 cents...
whether you are buying  furniture, jewelry, tires, hot tubs, cars, or any other large purchase, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE VARIANCES IN PRICE! thats capitalism at its best.......
due largely to where you live, the size/ selling volume of the retailer, overhead/operation costs, etc.
have you ever paid the MSRP for a couch, a gold necklace, a stereo, or a car???
its your money. buy what you want, where you want.
theres a huge furniture store in my area.  i choose not to shop there. they have the sale to end all sales every other friday. if the trend holds up by next year they should be paying me to take furniture off their hands  
everyone knows its BS, but you know what? the buy a @#$% load of furniture, and get better terms than a smaller store, so they CAN sell for less and still make money, plus with the volume they can run on a smaller margin.
does that mean the smaller single store who quotes you a "best price" that is still $100 more for the same couch you can get at the mega store, is dishonest and trying to screw you? no......
if store 1 tells you brand x spa has an MSRP of $15000, but today is on sale for $11000, and store 2 says we normally sell the very same spa (not some abstract MSRP) for $10000 but today we throw in chemicals and steps for the $10000, whats the better deal??  
i didn't know the pricing structure of spas, so i went to several stores, looked up dealers on websites, and looked for sites like this one. when i found this site, i was all ready to order a spa from an online source, just like i bought my last vehicle(saved over $6k real money). after reading here, weighed pros and cons, and instead spent $8k on my tub (local caldera dealer) instead of $6800 for on line tub(made by co i never heard of). looked the same on paper, pumps, jets, etc.
chevy dealer anywhere will fix my van. tubs are different, so i spent the extra $1300 for my own peace of mind. that was my choice. i dont feel like was taken, inor was it the deal of the century. think it was a fair price.

i dont feel any industry owes me a list of standard prices. if i want/need a product, i will shop different makers for quality and price, and in the end , do i want to pay what the merchant is asking for that product? if its worth it to me i do. if not i dont. very simple.

[Chris_H]

You are so wise obi wan.

[obi wan]

lil' ole me??
now i have to keep up the wisdom! such pressure!
um.... live long and prosper?
wait ... i've got it..... shazbot!
nanu-nanu grasshopper ??