Artic's Self Supporting Hull

[Gomboman]

I've never seen an Artic spa before.  I've heard the name mentioned here lately so I went to their website.  The Self Supporting Hull concept seems interesting.  They claim you don't need a special foundation.  Just set it down and go.  This is assuming you have a level location etc.  I wonder if it works? From their website below:


Self Supporting Hull  

Already renowned for our sturdy wood floor, standard on every Arctic Spa, our engineers decided to raise the bar yet again by developing the Forever Floor®. Composed of hand-rolled fiberglass composites, this floor is impervious to moisture, pests, and time. It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks! Just set it on the ground, hook it up, fill and use...installation has never been easier and your floor will last forever in any conditions. In addition, your portable spa is now truly portable. If you move spa locations in your yard or if you move across town, the foundation comes with you.
http://
http://www.goarctic.com/index.php?dest=main&lang=en&option=show_content&show=41

[Soakin]

...The Self Supporting Hull concept seems interesting.  They claim you don't need a special foundation.  Just set it down and go.  This is assuming you have a level location etc.  I wonder if it works?

 If you search back aways you will find at least a couple of discussions about this.  My recollection is that the people with actual experience with Arctic swear the "Forever floor" works just as described, while most everyone else is skeptical.  I'd think you would have to be very comfortable with their warranty before trying it.

[Brewman]

Even if the spa is built that way, I just don't like the idea of not putting some kind of foundation down.
Brewman

[JcDenton]

I have the forever floor, but I've still placed my tub as though it wasn't there (i.e. proper/level site). Just makes sense in the long run IMO. I wonder who would spend all that $$ and not prepare a proper spot for it to sit on. I hope to have my tub last a long, long time so I will try to do everything I can to encourage this.

I do like the way the floor provides a barrier between inside and outside of the tub itself though.

Jc

[bosco0633]

I agree.  I have ordered my arctic with the forever floor but just had the cement put down today.  I think you should still takes the steps to ensure that your tub sits on a good base.

[ebirrane]

One of the main purposes of a foundation for your hot tub is to *keep it level* over time.

Drop a ton of weight on untamped, unprepared ground, let it sit there through some freeze/thaw cycles and some monsoon rains and after a few years you might not be very level anymore. Add to it uncle Earl, who weighs 300lbs likes the seat on the left and aunt Edna, who weight 50 pounds, uses the seat on the right.

Slabs and decks and patios all have drainage underneath of them which is meant to keep the surface level for decades to come.

If level wasn't an issue, buy *any* hot tub, outline a place in your back yard, drop some cheap spa pads or, frankly, plastic sheeting, down and plop the tub on it.

I imagine the reason hot tub manufacturers don't warrant unprepared surfaces isn't an industry secret conspiracy theory against incompetant base construction.  I imagine it is because if frost heave or sudden settling causes your enormously heavy, filled-to-the-brim tub to suddenly shift you could break something.

Anyway, that's always what I've always believed.

And this, above all else, is the problem I have with the Arctic sales pitches: Common sense solutions to the wrong problems. The forever floor does not guarantee your tub will stay level (and note that little exception in the warranty). A proper foundation does.

[obi wan]

isn't half the reason for a "foundation" to provide a level surface? i have seen postings here debating decking vs. peagravel, or sand, or concrete pad, etc..... all these have one thing in common. level foundation.
having a sealed "impervious" bottom is great. but if you drop it in your yard, isn't it likely to settle crooked?? my first tub came with the house in 1990. it was laid on top of 4-5 inches of sand, and a deck built around it, so the tub was basically recessed into the deck, with about 18" showing. it had been in for 4 years when i bought the house. due to settling issues, one side was almost 5" higher than the other. i wound up have to dismantle over half the deck in order to lift up and move the tub so i could dig out and pour a slab for it to sit on. what a pain in the %#@ that was!
i just bought a caldera a few months ago, and i built a mini deck for it to sit on, framed on "dek bloks". i am not pushing concrete or decking as i have done both.
i am agreeing with others here that you cant bring a tub home, find a level spot, and plop it on your lawn though......

[fletch49]

I I have an Arctic Spa with a Forever Floor and the floor is warped! The entire tub is sitting on four or five contacts, and the rest of the floor is warped up and not making contact. This obviously caused me great concern, so I called the dealership, and they sent out a tech the next  day. He had a look and wasn't worried (I got that in writing). He actually mentioned that all FF systems have some warp in them (inherent to the process).

Obviously a warped spa floor, is not a good thing, but Arctic Spa has some confidence in their product. IMO...that's a strong floor and shell to take that pressure.  

[JPKeirstead]

And this, above all else, is the problem I have with the Arctic sales pitches: Common sense solutions to the wrong problems. The forever floor does not guarantee your tub will stay level (and note that little exception in the warranty). A proper foundation does.

I am not aware of any sales pitch used that states the forever floor will keep a spa level.  It does however, keep the elements out and is not susceptible to rot.  It still requires a level surface.  There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.

James Keirstead
Arctic Spas

[stuart]

James,
Thanks for that input! I do think that you need to share this with your dealers though as I know of two in my area that sell under the pretense that you don't need a base of any kind....This lends to thought that customers believe you don't need to level.


It would be interesting to actually read the warranty however your one of the few manufactures that doesn't seem to share that. Any reason why you don't have it on your website like some of the larger manufactures?

[ebirrane]

There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.

James Keirstead
Arctic Spas

The original poster quoted the following, presumably, from the arctic web site:

"It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks!"

The above quote from (presumably) the website, and your quote above certainly seem to be saying two different things.

Back to the sales pitch rant... the web site sales pitch is implying something that is not true and/or is not covered under warranty and/or is trying to demonstrate advantage over other products where one does not, in essence, exist.

I am not saying the forever floor is a bad idea. I am sure it is satisfcatory just as most floor systems on most tubs are satisfactory. I will even go so far as to say in certain installation conditions the forever floor may have an advantage over other floors based on its composition.

None of that addresses the pattern of customer confusion.  Name only your true strengths, acknowledge your weaknesses, and sell hot tubs.  Those three things ain't mutually exclusive!

-Ed

[Soakin]

The original poster quoted the following, presumably, from the arctic web site:

"It completely eliminates the need for foundation materials like concrete, decking, or blocks!"

The above quote from (presumably) the website, and your quote above certainly seem to be saying two different things.

Sorry Ed, I'm usually with you on most topics, and I share your concern with Arctic's marketing hyperbole, but ...

I think that James is saying that Arctic does not deny warranty claims based on where the spa was placed.  That backs up the marketing of the "Forever Floor.  

I agree with you and the others that opine that it is a bad idea to place a spa on an unprepared site, but it appears that Arctic is confident enough in their system, that they aren't concerned.  More power to them.


Regards,

Cal

p.s.  James, you seem like a reasonable man, and your posts often have been helpful in clarifying issues raised by your marketing and sales people.  Perhaps if they could tone it down to your level, this forum could focus on your products, not your claims.

[Soakin]

I I have an Arctic Spa with a Forever Floor and the floor is warped! The entire tub is sitting on four or five contacts, and the rest of the floor is warped up and not making contact.  ...a tech mentioned that all FF systems have some warp in them (inherent to the process)...

Perhaps it is better to set these on a soft surface so it can fill the voids, and avoid the risk of a "rocking tub"  :

[ebirrane]

I think that James is saying that Arctic does not deny warranty claims based on where the spa was placed.  That backs up the marketing of the "Forever Floor.  

Oh!    James, if that is the case, I do apologize.

When James said:

There are no exceptions in our warranty for not putting your spa on a concrete slab or deck.

I may have misread the double negative.  Exception is a bit of a baffling word, you can have good exceptions and bad exceptions!  

I took it as "there are no (good) exceptions in our warranty that cover you if you don't put your tub on a concrete slab or deck".

Perhaps he meant: "There are no (bad) exceptions in our warranty that will NOT cover you if you put your tub on something other than a concrete slab or deck".

If he meant the former, well, then, thpt.  If he meant the latter, I misread and apologize!  Sorry!!

Maybe let's simplify it to a yes/no question:

If I set my arctic tub on the lawn is it covered under warranty, assuming it stays level?

We'll leave the "will the lawn stay level" debate for another set of posts!

-Ed

[stuart]

Let's simplify this....James do you have a place on the internet that we can veiw the warrenty in detail like we can with most reputable manufactures?

That would settle things.