Filtration, Circulation, Heating Harmony

[Circlt]

Nice forum, just stumbled on it while searching for quality dealers in my area, Southern California.

My husband and I are looking to buy our first spa.  We have had some "hand-me-downs" but we want to buy a quality spa and although I want value I am more concerned with technology.  

Having read this board I know that first we need to consider what our use will be and that is primarily hydrotherapy for our small family (particularly for his neck) but we also have a well and the water is terrible.  We live on a river, and there are numerous minerals/deposits and other unwanteds in our water.   The sewage treatment plant is just a mile upstream.  They dump it into a wetlands after treatment and our well is just on the backside of the last wetland pond.  Enough said.  That is the table we draw from.  I know from our indoor facilities that the water is extremely hard on components....faucets clog up over time, hard water rusted deposits and stains are constant.  Add to that we live in a high dust and debris zone (dirt roads and lots of trees that drop seeds and other debris).   I know a cover will help but if we use the spa as much as we hope, we can not avoid the high probability of dirt, debris, and poor water quality filtering thru the spa.  I don't want to have to constantly treat/drain/clean so if there is a technology out there by a manufacturer that is well suited to this type of environment, I would be interested.  Please note that I want a quality spa and I am also interested in quality in other areas, but this is one area where I know I absolutely can not cut corners or I will be paying for it over time.

I am not a techie and I am having a very hard time understanding the filtration systems.  It's more than just what kind of filter you have, it seems to also incorporate circulation and pumps, and whether they run 24/7 and also what effect the various filter locations have on the heating unit (or this could be my poor interpretation).  It also seems that when discussions on this topic are had, monthly cost is discussed in terms of energy consumption.  I would much rather pay a little more monthly for the right system rather than burn out a pump, corrode my jets, etc. or have overly frequent filter replacements or chemical costs.  I don't know what the right balance is but you techs can probably see this more clearly than I.

Incidentally we looked at Sundance today, very impressed with the tub, (Majesta) but I don't understand the differences in technology.  We will check out Hot Springs next.  Open to other manufacturers if you recommend them for filtration/circulation.  If someone out there could explain in simple layman's terms what the main differences are in the major filtration/circulation systems are, I could possibly make an informed decision.  As it is, I can't even read the technology page of Sundance's website, as the main drool won't display on the page properly.

Many thanks and I will be a regular lurker from now on.
(P.S. If you are wondering why we put up with the water, we live on a wildlife preserve of 1500 acres so it's one of those things you learn to live with in exchange for the pluses). : )

Also as an added thought, the dealer (I won't mention him by name) was extremely reasonable and he was the first one we dealt with.  After reading this board I am 100% confident he was offering a good deal.  I just don't know if it is the right tub for us.  Another thing that concerned me is that Sundance tubs are 'full foam" according to this dealer....I thought that was frowned on?  Perhaps I should do a little more research on that.  I did like the warranty so perhaps it is a moot point.

[Lori]

Welcome Circit!

I don't know if I can help with the  filtration issue.  I am not a techie either, but the major manufacturers all keep the water clean.  That is the important part.  Whether it is filtering cycles that are programmed, or a constant circulation pump for filtration, both systems work!  How well they work for your water issues, that will be for the experts to determine!  I would suggest narrowing down to a couple of tubs (manufacturers/dealers) and taking a sample for them to test.  Maybe the local guys and gals would have a suggestion for you.

As to full foam, don't sweat that.  If it is by a good maker, and has a reliable dealer in your area, don't worry!  Especially since you are in Southern California!  There are lots of great tubs out there, Sundance is one of the manufacturers that makes them, HotSpring is another.  What other brands do you have available in your area?  You may want to check out Marquis, Artesian, LA Spas, Dynasty, Caldera, uhhhhh...sorry if I missed any.  These are in no particular order, just a list off the top of my head!

Good luck!!

[J._McD]

Circlt, welcome to the web.  First, you need to be aware I am a dealer, we have been handling the same brand for the last 16 years and there is a reason for that.  That may lead you to believe that I am opinionated, but I believe it to be experienced with 21 years of being a dealer.  The first 5 years of handling good, better, best categories was the education period.

I would recommend that you focus on SD, the filtration and the use of ozone in conjunction with water maintenance that would reduce the use of chemicals and increase the length of time between water changes.  

All other spas are good and worthy of your consideration.  You would most likely enjoy any one of them as they will all produce seemingly similar results to a good hot water soak.  

Over the 16 years, our customers have had very good experience using ozone to substantially reduce the dependency on chemical sanitizers.  While this is not the focus of your post, I would only want to indicate that SD would be a best choice in the good, better, best catergory.

However, you are the person to make that judgement.
If you have specific questions, I would be glad to respond.

[Soakin]

Welcome!  Evaluating spas can be overwhelming at first .  Just take your time, ask questions both here and at the dealers and you will soon be debating the merits of full-foam (which isn't necessarily a bad thing by the way) and thermal-loc insultation, 24/7 circulation pumps vs multiple filter cycles, loungers, and ranking various manufacturers .  IMO, you will find that if you stay with the big names, the technology differences are more marketing hype than substance (they all provide clean water and good hydrotherapy, they just use different ways to get there), and you pay similar prices for similar products.  That isn't to say that there won't be one "perfect" tub for your situation, you just have to learn enough to know what that is.  Shopping dealers and wet testing is part of that, so is spending some time on this site, rhtubs.com (which has some valuable overviews and FAQ sections) and other forums.  There is a search feature here that will help you find previous discussions of most topics, just make sure to adjust the search period to include a good chunk of time.  

Regarding your water.  It sounds like your house should be plumbed to make sure that all the water including toilets and outside faucets is treated by filters and/or softener, if it isn't already.  If so, be careful regarding softened water in your tub, consult your dealer.  As Lori suggested, a local dealer may have already helped others with similar water, and have a procedure that will address your concerns.  Bring a sample of the water you will use to fill the tub to the dealer for testing.  FYI, there are chemical tools to deal with almost any water issue and hose-end filters available to use when filling your tub.  If worse comes to worse, some areas have water services that will deliver hot, balanced and sanitized water to fill your tub for a fee ($150 here).

My first thought is not to worry too much about the dust and dirt in the air.  You will only have the cover off an hour or so a day, and usually during quiet periods.  However, if I'm wrong and it truly will be an issue, you may have to become an expert on spa filtration techniques after all .  There are a lot of approaches to filtration and they all seem to work as far as maintaining clean water, but one may fit your situation better.  There was a good discussion on filtration here a couple of months ago. Search back and see if you can find it.  The point that stuck with me was the distincton that "100%/no bypass filtration" of the water passing through the pumps still doesn't mean that all of the water in the tub gets filtered, because water still comes in from the upper zone of the tub and there are spots lower in the tub where things can settle out.   However, in an environment like yours "100% filtration" would at least ensure protection for your pumps.  You will also need to consider filter media, and its effect on maintenance.  It could be that in your environment, one type of filter may be better due to concerns about particle size, plugging, cleaning and replacement costs.  As I'm writing this, it dawns on me that Hot Spring's approach to filtration with "no bypass" and their dishwasher-cleanable TriX filters, and Hydropool's floor cleaning feature may be a choices you should give extra consideration to.

Good luck!

[Spatech_tuo]

Crclt,
There are some SoCal dealer who are regulars on this board and can maybe enev help you locally if you're more specific relative to your area in SoCal.

[Guttboy]

Circlt,

I live in San Antonio which has extremely hard water due to all the limestone here.  Most of the folks I know use a water softener that treats the "clogging" due to buildup.  

We are installing one in the home that we are building that should be completed in July.

A thought on water softeners though...you probably do not want to run your softened water to an outside spigot that you will be watering your lawn with.  This was advised against by the local nursery, home store, builder, neighbors...you name it.  There are minute amts of salt (or potassium depending on what you use to soften the water) that will go out in that water and could hurt your lawn/plants.  It may be different for your case though.

As far as filtration goes...all the vendors that I have researched have quality water filtration systems (HS, Marquis, Caldera, Artesian, Sundance, D1).

I am not sure how hard it would be in your particular case to go the water softener route.  Another thought may be to use a good quality prefilter when filling your tub up...just a thought.  Most dealers sell these.

And you can also ask your dealer in the area what their thoughts are!

Good Luck!

[Soakin]

...I would recommend that you focus on SD, the filtration and the use of ozone in conjunction with water maintenance that would reduce the use of chemicals and increase the length of time between water changes.  ...

...Over the 16 years, our customers have had very good experience using ozone to substantially reduce the dependency on chemical sanitizers.  While this is not the focus of your post, I would only want to indicate that SD would be a best choice in the good, better, best catergory. ...

J McD,  not to pick nits, but I'm a little concerned that this post makes it sound like Sundance is one of the only manufacturers using ozone as part of their clean water system.  I'm sure that isn't what you intended, since we all know that isn't true, but a new shopper may not.

I also take issue with the implication that ozone is benign and not a "chemical" with its own set of benefits and risks, but that also is a topic for another thread, which quite frankly has already been done.  I know this makes it sound like I am "anti-ozone" --  I'm not.  I personally am ambivalent about ozone use in hot tubs, (except my previously stated concerns regarding indoor air quality )  I see its potential benefits, particularly the ability to reduce other sanitizer use, and the 24/7 sanitation/oxidation to help maintain the water when users are away a few days, or forget to sanitize -- but also see maintenance costs, including bulbs/chips and the pillows and covers attacked by ozone and other chemicals-- offgassing controls or not.  I just worry that some manufacturers and dealers present it in manner that oversteps what little scientific research is available on the subject, and overstates the benefits while ignoring the drawbacks.  I know that's marketing in America, but thought this board was supposed to be more balanced.

I really don't want to start another version of the "Ozone Wars", especially not in this thread, since it is not an issue that Circlt identified as a concern, and a reprise would not do anything to assist their search for a spa.  Just my two cents.

Soakin

p.s.  Moderators, is there a way to quote a post, but start a new thread with it, so as to avoid highjacking threads and starting down a path that is off topic?

[shabba34]

J McD,  not to pick nits, but I'm a little concerned that this post makes it sound like Sundance is one of the only manufacturers using ozone as part of their clean water system.  I'm sure that isn't what you intended, since we all know that isn't true, but a new shopper may not.

I also take issue with the implication that ozone is benign and not a "chemical" with its own set of benefits and risks, but that also is a topic for another thread, which quite frankly has already been done.  I know this makes it sound like I am "anti-ozone".  I'm not, I personally am ambivalent about ozone use in hot tubs, (except my previously stated concerns regarding indoor air quality ) and think it may hold promise.  I just worry that some manufacturers and dealers present it in manner that oversteps what little scientific research is available on the subject.

I really don't want to start another version of the "Ozone Wars", especially not in this thread, since it is not an issue that Circlt identified as a concern, and a reprise would not do anything to assist their search for a spa.  Just my two cents.

Soakin

p.s.  Moderators, is there a way to quote a post, but start a new thread with it, so as to avoid highjacking threads and starting down a path that is off topic?

 

Soakin,
I would take more issue that J Mcd is professing that sundance is the only manufacturer to focus on as they are the best in the good, better, best category.  All other spas are good and worthy of consideration however, cant hold a candle to the best    Just playin with ya J Mcd

[Circlt]

Thank you all, what a nice group, and I appreciate dealer advice since you know how your product performs and why.

I am in Riverside.  I plan on wet testing all the tubs but as one of you said, there is more to it than just hot water and jets.  Fantastic suggestion bringing a water sample to the dealer!!!  Would not have thought of that.

I do like the SD 880 line.  Would that filtration be considered "100% filtration" since it has a circulation pump that is always on? Also, do the 880's come with Ozonator already in them or is that extra?  I know the CD Ozonator is extra but I thought that was above and beyond an ozonator already in the system.  (Could be I listened wrong).  How long does that CD ozonator last and what does it cost initially and then to replace?  If I add the CD, what maintenance would I still do?  Is it true that if I have a CD ozonator, then I would not be a candidate for BaquaSPa, but use chlorine instead?  I understand fewer chemicals with ozonator but what about foam and scum, does the ozonator control that too?  (stuff that comes from your oils in your skin, etc)

A hose filter, what a great idea!!!!  I do not have a water softener and did read that thread about soft water but a hose filter is a great idea.

I don't understand the microclean filter, is it one filter or two (and which of those is disposable vs. cleanable?)  I saw the filter and it had sort of a blue plastic cage around a pleated paper filter but that was one piece, I thought.  The dealer said the cage is to prevent the paper from falling apart.  So I'm not sure what part is disposable?  I don't mind cleaning filters either.  I think I read somewhere that just because the 880 comes with that blue cage filter doesn't mean you can't use the other kind but I'm not sure why anyone would want the older filter technology?  Is one disposable and the other isn't?  Can you clean the disposables or do they fall apart?

I read the thread about charging for warranty service calls.  I don't know about my dealer, will have to ask and I will also want to review the warranty contract up front before I buy.  I don't mind if it is disclosed up front but what happened to that one man with his new Optima was really a cheap shot that should have been withdrawn by the dealer when confronted with the discrepency, along with profuse apologies.  Opportunity lost and damage done.   I reviewed the warranties on line between Sundance and HS and they appear to be the same.....SD goes a little longer on shell defect.  I did not see anything there about service fees but as I recall they were directly dealer related in that scenario.

I have not seen HS tubs yet.  I was first attracted to them because they sell refurbs but now I am smarter from reading this board and realize I need a good warranty and I don't think I get one on a used spa.  (At least it doesn't say anything on the website).  How is their filtration technology different from SD?  Don't they also offer a circ pump, filter and ozonator?  I know they advertise "no bypass" but I think I would get that in SD too, right?

Just one other question, what is usually the first component to "quit" on a spa ....in other words, what reasonable expectation should I have about my first replacement, and when?  

[Soakin]

I would take more issue that J Mcd is professing that sundance is the only manufacturer to focus on as they are the best in the good, better, best category.  All other spas are good and worthy of consideration however, cant hold a candle to the best    

Just to show how fair and balanced I am , I gave him the benefit of the doubt on that one.  It took a little interpretation, but I read it as SD is one of the "best:.  Not sure if your brand is a "better" or "best" in his book, you two can work that one out.  I guess my ozone fuse is just a little short!

[Soakin]

....I do like the SD 880 line.  Would that filtration be considered "100% filtration" since it has a circulation pump that is always on? ... I have not seen HS tubs yet.  ...  How is their filtration technology different from SD?  Don't they also offer a circ pump, filter and ozonator?  I know they advertise "no bypass" but I think I would get that in SD too, right?

...  I do not have a water softener...
  

I really suggest you search "100% filtration" to find the discussion of what that really means, but suffice it to say, just because your circ pump moves more gallons through a filter in a day than the capacity of the tub, that is not really "100% filtration", and it certainly is not "no bypass".  I hear a thunder of Hot Spring hooves coming around the corner to explain their filtration system, so I'll just say that I don't think they will agree you are getting the same filtration on a SD.  You have to decide if the differences are important, but as I said before:  all of the good manufaturers filter enough water to maintain a clean tub, but if the dusty environment is an issue, "no bypass" might be worth considering as pump protection, as is the Hydropool floor cleaning feature as a way to keep grit off the bottom.

Re: water softener.  As I said before, with the problems you describe with your water, I would think a softener or whole house filtration system would be mandatory.   Cheap shot coming:  perhaps J McD could recommend at good ozone water purification system.  (Really sorry, I just couldn't help myself!)

[East_TX_Spa]

I hear a thunder of Hot Spring hooves coming around the corner to explain their filtration system,

Rollin, rollin, rollin.....RAWHIDE!

The big advantage to our 100% no-bypass filtration is that every drop of water is filtered BEFORE it ever enters the pump, the heater, the plumbing.  To my knowledge, no one else does it this way.  Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.  I'm always looking to learn more about this wonderful industry.

Terminator

[shabba34]

Rollin, rollin, rollin.....RAWHIDE!

The big advantage to our 100% no-bypass filtration is that every drop of water is filtered BEFORE it ever enters the pump, the heater, the plumbing.  To my knowledge, no one else does it this way.  Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.  I'm always looking to learn more about this wonderful industry.

Terminator

According to the brochure, "Only Mother Nature Does It Better"  That was for JA

[Circlt]

Wow I just looked at the Marquis filtration system on the website.  Impressive!  I will try those tubs as well.  Is there any truth though that you can't run all the jets at the same time?  Someone on this board was not happy with their Marquis for that reason.  (Though doesn't hate it as much as at first.)

HS Hooves and all, I do see your point about all of the water going through the filter.  I will search the board for other threads on that debate so no need to do it again here.  Thanks for getting me in the right direction, you guys are great.  I think J McD is right, many of the tubs have good qualities and it will probably be a very competitive search.  Right behind filtration is the importance of a solid dealer who will back up the sale with service.

By the way, installing a water softener is not an option for us.  Also, if we retire and move, how hard is it to move a spa?

[tony]

I have to agree... what in the world did Sundance do to its web site.  They used to have a pretty good site...now..forget it.  Not to mention what they did to the Jacuzzi Premium site.

The Sundance 880 series now uses a high volume circ pump that handles all of its filtering through a new one part micro clean filter that is disposable after six months to a year (depending upon who you talk to or use).  The therapy pumps are now both one speed and are exclusive of the filter system (except for the little socks if you count them).  There is a new waterfall system that works through the circ pump.

The Sundance CD ozonator does not require chip replacement and from what I hear should last ten years.  You may need to replace the plastic tubing and/or check valves periodically, but this something any end user can do.  All Sundance spas come ozone ready, but the ozonator is extra and dealer installed.

The next series down, the 800 series uses the older style two part filter with a low volume circ pump and filter cylcles using a two speed therapy pump.  One filter is the small micro clean filter serviced by the circ pump and is diposed of after three or four months.  The other filter is a pleated filter run that should be cleaned monthly.