Ozone use in an indoor spa

[Soakin]

This discussion of ozone on/off for various manufacturers is nice, but back to the original question regarding ventilation of an indoor spa room....  

There were a couple of threads discussing these topics  (ozone/health and ventilation) in the last couple of months.  Do a search going back at least 60 days (I usually add 00 to the 7 default to get two years worth of postings on a topic.)

IMO regardless of if your ozonator shuts off when the jets are running and/or how well your tub controls offgassing, you want plenty of ventilation 24/7 for an indoor spa.  In addition to the ozone, you will have sanitizer offgassing and other air contaminants , not to mention increased humidity levels.  

[Cgar]

The reason I brought up the ozone shut-down while jets are running is because that would  mean that typically when the cover is off, there would be no ozone produced.  This would result in little-to-no actual exposure to ozone (even indoors).  

As was already mentioned, I believe that indoor exposure to chlorine vapors may be more of a health concern than the ozone.

[Soakin]

The reason I brought up the ozone shut-down while jets are running is because that would  mean that typically when the cover is off, there would be no ozone produced.  This would result in little-to-no actual exposure to ozone (even indoors).  

Cgar, I really should let you have the last word on this because you may well be right, but I respectfully disagree.  I think that even though the ozone may not be being produced while the cover is off, it will still be introduced into the room when the cover is removed.  When I was shopping for tubs, most covers on demo models were faded on the inside due to exposure to the gases coming off the tub.  I'm betting on the ozone, but it really doesn't matter.  Johnvb, you need to do your own research on the effects of ozone indoors and then decide if:
a)  ozone matters, and
b)  if it does, do you really want to rely on your spa manufacturer's marketing claims regarding their ability to eliminate ozone offgassing.
c) are you better off just increasing ventilation, or getting a tub without ozone (or disconnecting it if you already have the ozone)

Regardless, it appears that cgar and I agree that there are lots of reasons to ventilate a room with a spa in it, ozone or not, and looking back John said he plans to ventilate anyway,  so I guess the real question was do you need to do anything special re: the ozone?  I am not an expert on indoor air and I doubt most of the posters here are either.  I do know that Consumer Reports isn't fond of it, and recommends against putting sources of ozone in your home.  There may be codes for this or indoor pools that you need to follow, but in the absence of that, or guidelines from your spa manufacturer... if it was my room, I'd want more concrete info than this board is likely to provide.

Good luck on your research and and let us know what you decide.  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

This whole topic has been discussed to death before, and I just don't have the energy to look up all the previous posts and paste them. and I type slow.

however,

I have customers that discovered their children had asthma when they got a spa with ozone.......... once they unplugged the ozonator, they forgot the kids problem.

I had another customer with a spa indoors and the ozone destroyed a plasma TV (ozone is known to destroy some kinds of plastic)

The EPA considers ozone a serious indoor air pollutant

I don't know how "current" this info is, but it's worth reading;
http://www.rhtubs.com/indoor-ozone-danger.htm

As a side note, everything I've ever heard of read with regards to "swimmers hot tub lung" has occurred with indoor swimming pools. I don't recall ever hearing about an occurrence in an outdoor pool (that didn't involve some kind of misting devise, or mist generating water feature).

[johnvb]

I had another customer with a spa indoors and the ozone destroyed a plasma TV (ozone is known to destroy some kinds of plastic)

Ouch! I just bought $500 worth of "Azek" cellular PVC beadboard trim for the ceiling, because it is moisture proof.

If it is basically the same as the PVC piping used in the spa, am I ok?

As for other "gasses", we will be using the supplied Bromine tablet sanitizers with the spa to start with.

[Rmack]

We are planning on having an indoor hot tub and I tried to find information about having an ozonator indoors with ventilation.

I contacted Sundance with my concerns and questions regarding this subject and they would not respond to anything about the safety concerns about there ozonators.

I have copd and decided it would be best for me to not have an ozonator in our hot tub, especially with the lack of credible testing of the ozonators by any independent labs.

Ron

[J._McD]

I can not believe what appears to be an over reaction to the lack of understanding ozone.  It has been in use since the 1890's primarily for water purification.  Everybody who know's nothing seems to have an opinion on it and they are looking for someone to either reinforce it or debate it.

If there is so much concern over ozone off gassing, what about ALL other sanitizers that are in use.  They gas off too.  Are you aware that a Hot Tub is a breeding ground of bacteria that could be the source of infection that could even result in death (legionaires desease).

Put Delzone in your search engine and begin some research.  Don't expect a hot tub manufacturer, SD or any other, to comment or give an opinion on water sanitation other than you need it.

Fear and the unknown, Investigate, research and learn, ultimately you are responsible for your own decisions.  I have put over 5,000 ozones on hot tubs and I like to think I know something about the subject, but I learn something new everyday.  I have never had a custumer die of ozone inhalation.

Research the ozone industry.  Del would be a good start.  How can you make an intelligent decision based on ignorance or hearsay.  You could be passing on a very good concept in lieu of a worser fate.  

Are you aware that the pool and spa industry is "chemically dependant" and ozone dosen't make any money in after market sales?  Think about it. Open your eyes and look for the answers.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

"It has been in use since the 1890's primarily for water purification. "

this is true, but the method used for drinking water is COMPLETELY different than how it's used for spas.

"If there is so much concern over ozone off gassing, what about ALL other sanitizers that are in use. "

this could be referred to as the power of the lobbying dollar

"Put Delzone in your search engine and begin some research."

On the propaganda published by an ozone manufacturer?

"Don't expect a hot tub manufacturer, SD or any other, to comment or give an opinion on water sanitation other than you need it."

I would expect a responsible answer to a concern of personal safety, even if that answer is "I don't know, there are no comprehensive studies".

"Fear and the unknown, Investigate, research and learn, ultimately you are responsible for your own decisions. "

And if the studies don't exist, are have been hidden from the public?

"I have put over 5,000 ozones on hot tubs and I like to think I know something about the subject,"

Like...... how to install them? According to the manufacturers specifications? (sorry, I didn't really mean to offend........ just me and my lack of not being able to resist sometimes :-)

"but I learn something new everyday.  I have never had a customer die of ozone inhalation."

Die no, bring on an asthma attack yes.

" How can you make an intelligent decision based on ignorance or hearsay.  You could be passing on a very good concept in lieu of a worser fate. "

Or you could be passing on something that one day might be right up there on the list with asbestos

"Are you aware that the pool and spa industry is "chemically dependant" and ozone doesn't make any money in after market sales?"

Would this be why a $5 florescent light in a box sells for $100.00 or more?



speaking of asbestos, I will now don (sp?) my asbestos suit

FLAME ON

[Rmack]

I am definitely not an expert on this subject, but have tried to research ozone because of the statements that you can run a hottub almost chemical free with one of these units installed.

Everything I have read on ozone has stated that it is not good for your health, especially if you have asthma.

There was a recent article in consumer reports about ionizers and the ozone created by these units and the adverse effects to your health caused by the ozone. ozone is ozone, it doesn't matter what is creating it.

One of my son-in-laws owned one of the units that they did not recommend. He has asthma and purchased the unit hoping it would help. His asthma got worse after purchasing the unit and he was trying to blame it on the pets they own. After I told him about the report in consumer reports, he shut it off and his asthma is now improving.

I do not believe there is enough credible information out there to prove that the ozonator is safe to use in an enclosed area.

If somebody can point me to that information I would appreciate it.

Ron

[J._McD]

Doc, Thanks for your additional insight, do you sell ozonators on your site?

This is like politics and religion.  I guess there are two sides to every coin.  

We could both be looking at the same quarter, on one side you would see the impression of an eagle, and on the other side I would see the the impression of a man.  

Would one of us be wrong? Or is it our point of view?

BTW you missed a line,  "Everybody who know's nothing seems to have an opinion on it and they are looking for someone to either reinforce it or debate it."  

You don't offend me, and I don't mean to challenge you, but it seems that  over 115 years there is little to show to support either argument, eh?

BTW I searched your site and coul not find a $5 bulb

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

"Doc, Thanks for your additional insight, do you sell ozonators on your site?"

You say at the end, you searched my site......... so of course you know that we do......... well, actually we offer them, but I don't recall sellign one in the last few years.............. not that I'm aware of all of our sales. We offer them, the few people I personally talk to about them, I give my personal beliefs about them, and suggest an ionizer instead.........

Yeah, sometime in the future they'll find a problem with ionizers I'm sure  

"This is like politics and religion.  I guess there are two sides to every coin. "

naaaaaaaaaa   politics and religion I'm smart enough to stay the heck out of..

"We could both be looking at the same quarter, on one side you would see the impression of an eagle, and on the other side I would see the the impression of a man."

WATCH out for them quarters, they can be very dangerous........ trust me, I was in a casino a couple weeks ago  

"Would one of us be wrong? Or is it our point of view?"

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, it's just a half a glass of water.

"BTW you missed a line,  "Everybody who know's nothing seems to have an opinion on it and they are looking for someone to either reinforce it or debate it."

miss? moi? perhaps I just chose not to respond to it?....... ummmmmmm, is there room here to mention us debating this? (ok, so I have a sick sense of humor).... or is your point that because I'm debating it I know nothing about it?  

"You don't offend me, and I don't mean to challenge you, but it seems that  over 115 years there is little to show to support either argument, eh? "

little openly shown yes..... but in my own cynical way, I kinda figure somewhere there's some test results being covered up or hidden away.

"BTW I searched your site and coul not find a $5 bulb"

Actually, it would be a $2 bulb, in a $1 box, with about $2 more of electrical stuff.......... unfortunately though, I don't manufacture this paticular product and am forced to pay whatever the manufacturer feels they can get.

And no, I have no interest in starting to manufacture these........... I got enough with hot tubs and spa covers.

[J._McD]

Doc, I see you waited for me to go to bed last night to post your response.

I don't believe it is beneficial for you to pontificate what you know or don't know.  You lost all credibility with me when you posted this.....
********************************************
Re: to ozone or not
Posted By: Dr. Spa
Date: Monday, 16 August 2004, at 6:02 p.m.
In Response To: Re: to ozone or not (Michael J)
: Ozone is an oxidizer, sanitizer and a
: carcinogen.

Well, you just lost all credibility on this one..... ozone is NOT a sanitizer..... go ask your ozone manufacturer or the EPA.
*********************************************

Why do you refer to ozone as a sanitizer throughout your site?  Now, don't go getting made at me and sending me any e-mails again threatening to spank me.  I am under the assumption that we are both here trying to help others.

It is just that you see the glass half empty and I see it half full, or visa versa if you may.  That is why we are in balance.

Those who hold themselves out to be doctors are usually practicing something.  They are usually the first to admit to the truth, they don't know it all, nor do I

But come on, don't pontificate your lack of understanding and beliefs in an open forum when there is little to nothing to prove.

Back to the issue at hand.  Johnvb has a legitimate question he would like some input on.  He has been elsewhere and maybe has received some mis-information maybe even from your website that could be erroneous and he wants a differing point of view.  

I do not hold myself out to be an authority on the subject and I know you are not one either.  Ozone is in fact a sanitizer despite you saying it is not.  You even say it is multiple times over in your profit making enterprise that sells ozonators.

Just because you can leave little tracks that lead to your archives, it does not mean it is the written word of the gospel, as written by Dr. Spa.

You certainly do try to do good work, you certainly keep this world in some form of balance while trying to keep us all in our place.  Maybee we should take this over to see JA and get his point of view.

Now, can I order 10 of those $5.00 bulbs or not?

[Chris_H]

Yeah, I know I made a mistake on my knowledge of Sundance, but what is going on here?  

I made myself read a post that was close to one page long.  Shame on both of you.  Now kiss and make up.

[johnvb]

Here’s something I pulled off the ASHRAE web site (American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers, Inc.)

Even though they give a general ventilation requirement guideline of .5cfm of outside air per sq. ft., they state that there is too many variables in the pool water chemistry and not enough data to determine whether this guideline is sufficient or not. Sounds like a good starting point though.



ASHRAE Studies Swimming Pool Off-Gassing
ATLANTA—Research on the proper amount of ventilation to be used to remove or dilute off-gassing of chlorine-based chemicals used to treat pools is being conducted by ASHRAE. ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 62, Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality, requires 0.5 cfm (0.2 L/s) of outdoor air per square foot of pool and deck area or 15 cfm (7 L/s) per person. Because little or no data exists on the chlorine-based chemicals, it is unknown whether the amount of ventilation air supplied to the pool enclosure is sufficient to remove the pollutants emitted by the water.

[Chris_H]

Yeah, you lost me at "ASHRAE web site."  Sorry.