Arctic Spas Anyone?

[empolgation]

In just looking at numbers...

if a $300 cover upgrade will save you 10 dollars a month (the cover before the upgrade must have been saran wrap) then you can realize your savings in 2.5 years of owning the tub and cover...

if in fact a "tub" was 9 cents (i don't think it was meant to be .09 cents) a month more effiecient with a 5-4 tapered cover than the "other tub" with a 3-2 tapered cover and an upgrade (to a 5-4 tapered cover or equivalent) costs about $300 you will realize your savings after you've had that tub about 278 years...

[ebirrane]

Which is probably exactly why HS doesn't ship with a larger cover. It doesn't need the extra help and would take too long for the customer to recoup the cost.

And the HS with the "Arctic-thickness" cover is probably overkill, just like an Arctic with a "HS-thickness" cover would do worse in the test.

Again, the study can become a liability if you point out that on arctic tubs you are "forced" to purchase the cover "upgrade" (yes, it is standard equipment, but I would imagine that it is already factored into the price of the tub) just to make the thing run efficiently.

Again, just pointing out "points of view" to try and demonstrate how not having identical covers injects all sorts of debate into the results interpretation.

I don't think alot of consumers think of the cover as an integral part of the tub.  If I dog jumps on my cover and breaks it, I don't say "my hot tub is broken", I say "my cover is broken".  BUT if my heater stops working, I say "my hot tub is broken", or if a leak occurs, I say "my hot tub is broken".

-Ed

[Mendocino101]

I have heard varied things about this study but one thing was that all the spas tested with the exception of the bottom 2 were very very close in operating costs and  that is what most reasonable people have always agreed on that a "WELL MADE" spa weather it be a  FF or a TP type will cost "about" the same to operate....the better makers of all spas will be very very close to each other with regards to energy consummation ...

[Brewman]

...........But then we'd have one less topic to argue about, and what would the fun be in that?

Brewman

[Mendocino101]

lol...Brewman you are right...than lets just set the record straight Marquis makes the most energy efficient spa in the universe and I have personally tested this with my own independent study and if you want come to my  showroom.....uhhhhh errrr I mean testing facility and I can prove it to you.....I also have the inside track to who shot JFK And how to get that last calorie out of diet coke....

[Tman122]

Back up here a minute I said I bought my second cover for 350, I think the upgrade when I bought originely was 50 bucks. And I was being retorical when I stated .09 cents because I do not have the test results in front of me. But it was some ridiculasly small number that would of surely been outdone by the other brands in the test, if they would of been outfitted with equal covers.

My point is the test is bogus and the results, to those of us in the know, could do nothing but steer us from a brand touting superiority based on skeewed results.

Again I reiterate, I like the tubs, I would put them in my top ten. But the way they are sold is deplorable. Find a new marketing staff.

[stabone]

 TMAN, how do you remember when I bought my tub, I  have been selling Arctics for 5 years, and my families plumbing and pool business has been around for 27 years.  We have been servicing all brands of tubs, for that whole time, and sold Jacuzzi for 15 years.   I know what is out there and there are some other really nice spas.  I believe Arctic's are the best tubs for cold weather climates, and the features that set them apart from other tubs, you better believe I am going to show people.
   I have sold tubs to so many people that told me I was the first sales person that didn't call my product and features "the best".    I know what is out there, I have a HS dealer across the street from my new location, and have sent people over there because they are looking for a size or feature, or putting a tub some place I don't think you would need an Arctic. Because I know that HS is a great tub and company, and that they are a good dealer.
   People (on the whole) are not stupid, if a company, and it's dealers are selling gold and delivering poo,  it does not take long for the cat to get out of the bag.  I don't hear people on this sit saying they feel "fooled" by Arctic, and they are disapointed about there spa!  What manufacture doesn't have a few jack-cracks selling their product that belong in a used car lot not a spa showroom?  
   As far as others on hear that accuse Arctic of selling features that other spas have as "unique", please show me a tub that has a built in foundation, cover, shell, powder coated cabinets or real cedar, heat lock insulation.    
    I find it funny when Arctic is mentioned on this site the "politically correct"  take is, "an average spa at a high price.  What components and features are average or below average on an Arctic compared to other tubs?  Is it,  4hp/56 frame  Waterway Pumps,  our heaters, Arctic's own bearing less jets, 2 inch piping, Gecko controls, 1 micron dispossable filters, bottom suction, bottom of footwell drain, warranty, covers,  cabinets, floors, shells?   Remember, I am not asking if you agree with how we insulate, or what you think is over built, or done, if you like the sales approach or marketing,  don't believe we have 1 micron filters,  or that tubs without circ pumps don't filter as well. Save that for a sales pitch.  
   What components, building materials, do above average tubs have?  I am wondering, because I see alot of smaller 46 frame pumps, less HP, smaller heaters, 1 1/2 feed lines, (yes any of you FF's that have 2 or 3 inch pipe out of the pump, I have seen the bushings or reducers back to 1 1/2 located in the foam just behind the equimpent compartment,  2x4's wedged up under seats and loungers to support the shell, ff tubs that when cut in half are not FULL FOAM but 1/2 to 3/4's foam, cabinets that are flimbsy and not sealed around the bottom or corners, that 1/4 thick pieces of the finest pine are stained and stapled to plywood backing, to make it appear thick and solid. . Stapled on plastic floors or plastic pans that insects and rodents can easily get past, that add no support or strenght to the tub, which is why they need you to provide them with one. (concrete pads, spa floors, etc)  Any of you showroom sales guys on here, that have never done construction, service, or probly even a delivery if you think a free standing concrete pad or one of those spa floors is not going to shift with the ground, you had better get your head examined.  You have to provide a solid base for a tub to sit on, we build ours on the tub. ( Again this is not whether you think a concrete pad is better, but is an Arctic floor average compared to others.)   Covers that get water logged because the foam inserts are cut to size not molded, break or sage in the middle from snow on top of them.  
    I am not saying all tubs have or do the things that I have listed above they are things I have seen.  I feel different climates and tub locations provide different challenges for hot tubs.  In cold weather climates operating costs are not the only concern. Prolonging the time before equipment can freeze and be damaged in power loss or equipment failure,  cabinets that are strong and durable, covers that insulate well, can hold heavy snow falls,  molded not cut foam inserts to help prevent moisture damage and water logging, and a strong, fully sealed floor are things that matter.   Also having a manufacture that backs their warranty, and is always improving the product.  That is why I sell Arctic, not because it may or may not be a few bucks a month less or more to operate.   Everyone on this sight thinks there product is "the best"  (and shame on you if you don't).    
  The bottom line is that there are alot of tubs that can satisfy the needs of the hot tubing world, the service and the way you treat people after the sale is what people remember and what makes them tell their friends about what a great hot tub they have.  
  Bad mouthing and showing features that you believe make your spa better are not the same thing.  People on this site talk about selling your product on its own merit,  yet bash Arctic for selling our tubs on what and why are tubs are built the way they are.  A company doesn't stay around very long selling on false or over hyped  products.    
     
   

[stabone]

 One other point on the energy test, and any of the tests for that matter is that the company doing the tests was not allowed to change any of the filtering or heating modes.  If you look at the results, there is an * by the HS tubs results, because it was preset on a cycle were it only ran when it needed to heat. Other ff tubs in the test were set on full filter cycle modes.  This is a big reason why the HS tub out performed other FF tubs that are insulated the same way.  If I sold a FF tub and saw the results, I would wonder how a tub insulated the same, ran on a circ pump, with one of the thinnest covers in the industry out performed what I sell. Are other circ pumps using that much more electric.  Yet know one has mentioned that. Even the company that did the tests said that the HS  should have walked away with the test.  
   For one, almost all manufactures have a test that shows their tub being the most efficient, and most dealers use their test results. Coast Spas's  slogan is " best built spa in the world" .  
     Claiming to be the most energy efficient spa is not a new thing in this industry.  Each dealer has to set their own standards for how they present their product.  I for one don't mention the test, unless someone asks me for one because the dealer down the street showed them their energy tests.  Acting like Arctic is the only manufacture that has done tests like this is not right.  
   If Arctic is this average tub with a big price tag,  lies about their product, and bad mouths everyone else. Why would anyone buy one over your product?  Are consumers that dumb?  I know if I read this forum, as a consumer I would have to go see an Arctic, because any product that gets all of  its competitors panties in a knot, must be worth seeing.  People get defensive when they are theatened or feel insecure.  Not about something they feel superior to or are not worried about.   If we are such a collective group of A-holes, at Arctic, sell a substandard tub, charge to much, and lie about how great are tub is, we  will take care of ourselfs, you all don't have to sweat us so much. I know if I felt about a competitor how you guys feel about Arctic, they would be such a little threat to me I wouldn't care what they told people. But if a tub moved to town that I was worried about I would be acting like most of you on here!!!!
   

[Chas]

If you look at the results, there is an * by the HS tubs results, because it was preset on a cycle were it only ran when it needed to heat. Other ff tubs in the test were set on full filter cycle modes.  This is a big reason why the HS tub out performed other FF tubs that are insulated the same way.

Help me understand what you are trying to say here: HotSpring runs the circ pump at all times. There is no filter cycle - it's always on. If the tub needs heat, the relays close and it heats until it's at temperature again. Then the relays open and the heating stops, but the circ pump keeps right on going.

There is an optional 'Summer Timer' mode which cuts off the circ pump for eight hours per day. During that eight hours, the circ pump will only come on if the tub needs heat and then go off. But at the end of the eight hours, the circ pump kicks back on for the rest of the day and night. However, I'm not even sure that was available on the tub which was tested - I don't remember the year that feature showed up, but it wasn't very long ago.

If I sold a FF tub and saw the results, I would wonder how a tub insulated the same, ran on a circ pump, with one of the thinnest covers in the industry out performed what I sell.

Careful engineering. Multiple types of foam are layered, nooks and crannies filled, plumbing supported, hot air recycled, small lines move water behind Moto Jets and in filter compartments, no areas are allowed to cool, equipment areas are insulated except for the door (optional in cold areas), air flow is managed, They make their own covers and they fit really well. I hardly think they are the thinnest in the industry. Also, heavy duty covers are optional.

I mean come on! Do you really think that all FF spas are created equal? If I lumped Arctic into the "All TP spas are created equal," you would write a novel.

Are other circ pumps using that much more electric.  

Yes, some do. And some use less. But it's not one componant you can point to - it's the whole tub, the whole design.

Yet know one has mentioned that. Even the company that did the tests said that the HS  should have walked away with the test.  

In some people's opinion, they did.

[stabone]

  Hey, Chas I figured I would get you on this one, first it is nothing against HS. Ask JP about the cycle on the HS I can't find my sheet on the test, but it says on the test. It sounds like the summer cycle. The point I was making is that there is an * by the results because of a difference in how the HS was operating and the other FF tubs in the test, yet no one cares about that, only that Arctic's cover that is overkill and isn't needed for anything than standing on, yet it is unfair inthe test.  
No problems Chas, I'm not saying anything bad about HS, only presenting a fact about the test.  
 Since everyone seemed so concerned about an even playing field,  I was waiting for one of you guys who studied the test results so much to notice that, I knew your bias and bitterness would win out, and not worry about stuff like how the tubs were operating!!
   Again, Chas don't take it so personal. it is nothing against HS, just a fact of the test!!!

[Chas]

You know, we need to do our own test. Each of us should contact the company we represent, or the company who's tub we purchased.

Ask them to send us as thier representative to a 'spa off.' Location needs to be someplace which will really put these things to the test. I'm thinking Tahiti, Hawaii or perhaps New Zealand.

The company should pay for shipping, and put us up in a five-star resort: after all, we would be working very hard to make them look good.

Any takers?

[stabone]

 I'm packing my bags

[stabone]

 I would buy my own testing equipment, bring one of my own tubs, and travel to any corner of the world to do a test with everyone on the site.  And do a test that is real life.  Cycles set how they really operate in peoples backyards.  Have the covers off 1 hour daily.

[Guttboy]

You are supposed to use a cover with the hot tub?

[stabone]

  Not alot of people get in their tub with the cover on, and 1 hour daily would be the amount of time the people are in thier tub, smart ass!!!  LOL