Water Quality & Warranties

[Steve]

In your opinion, should water quality be considered in a warranty claim of any part?

eg. You have a 5 year parts & labor guarantee but your heater element failed after 3 years. After bringing up a history of water samples brought into the store, it was determined that the pH and alkalinity were consistently low and contributed to the premature failure. Should this part be replaced under warranty?

That's just one example, but should water quality be considered at all in a warranty claim?

Steve

[HotTubMan]

That is a tough one Steve. I think most in the industry understand that heaters, covers, pillows, pump seals and jet inserts can be damaged by poor chemistry.

I think if the damage is done throught the learning curve, the customer should not be punished. If the customer is simply neglectful I feel they should pay. That said, who is responsible for teaching/policing the customer. The manufacturer can back out using the "misuse" aspect of warranty clauses, but have they made the customer understad their responsibilties clearly?

As the dealer, there is a fine line between warning the customer of their responsibilities and scaring them. You don't want to scare them before the sale, but you also don't want to spring it on them after the sale.

I want to say no, chemistry should not be a factor. However this could result in manufacturers either raising prices or going out of business.

I am curous to see what more seasoned veterns think...

HTM

[tony]

IMO, consistant poor water quality is neglect and is out of the control of the dealer and manufacturer.  Therefore it should be a consideration regarding warranties.  It may be tough to prove, though.

[poolboy34]

This is a tough subject to convey to customers.  People need to start being responsible and take care of the products that they purchase.  Why else would companies like Watkins, D-1 and Marquis start using heaters that don't corrode due to improper water chemistry?  Customers simply don't take proper care of what they buy.  We see it all too often in this industry, where a customer will come in to the store and have their pool or spa water tested.  First question we ALWAYS ask is how does the water look.  Now this usually brings one of three answers: "Horrible," "clear as a whistle, perfect," or my personal fave "YOU tell me."  

Crystal clear water is not always perfect water.  A pool or spa with extremely low alkalinity, pH and extremely high CYA levels will have crystal clear water.  And under these circumstances, especially during the begining of pool season; heaters, pump seals, pump impellers, etc can be damaged extremely quickly.  Thankfully most of the time customers with these conditions weren't customers who purchased their pool/spa from us.  Occassionally our own customers get neglectful themselves, but we do everything in our power aside from actually going to all of their houses and caring for them ourselves of explaining how and why they should take care of their pool/spa.

Too often these we are quick to blame the other guy, the manufacturer, etc.... instead of taking the responsibility and excepting that it was indeed our fault/actions/inactions that lead to the said outcome.  

Here's one example..............if you don't change the oil in your car, and your engine goes.who's at fault???  The dealer that sold you the car???  The car manufacturer?  or you???

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and Caldera Spas Dealer

[Bigbender]

This is an interesting subject and since I'm brand new to hot tub ownership, I thought I'd throw in my two dollars worth.

When I was comparing warranties, I never thought that water quality could be an issue for the manufacturer, but I can appreciate the concern. This situation can be compared to an automobile warranty. If the owner doesn't change the oil and filter on a regular basis, how can Ford or Dodge prove the cause of a blown engine ? In a car manual, they tell you to use a "good quality" oil, what viscosity is recommended, how often it should be changed and that's about all they can do. My hot tub manual isn't much different. It doesn't get real specific about what chemicals to use, how much is required or how often to add them. My dealer supplied us with a maintenance schedule that he made from his own experiences. (it's very helpful)

Every dealer we visited said something about maintenance schedules. It didn't scare us in any way, in fact we appreciated them being truthful about what to expect as owners. I personnaly feel that if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a hot tub, common sense tells you to take care of the structure and the water you're sitting in. I've learned that many chemical options are available and that some of them (Baquaspa for example) can be harmful to certain parts of the tub, be it plastic parts or acrylic finishes.

Because I'm a new owner, I'm keeping a detailed record of my water tests and what I've added to the water. I'm doing this so I have a reference for maintenance later on. I haven't yet or do I plan on taking water samples to my dealer every time I have a problem so the situation that Steve mentions seems rare. In this case, I'd say that the customer did show that he cared for his tub or he wouldn't have kept bringing samples in. Why didn't this dealer see a pattern from those samples and do something to help ?

If a manufacturer claims that a tub's malfunction is caused by the owner, their owner's manual should list the chemicals that the manufacturer approves and how to use them in their tub. If they provide this list and feel that something harmful was done, a chemical analysis of the water at the time of the warranty claim is the only way to prove neglect. But....in today's world of lawsuits, this method of handling a warranty claim can draw a fine line on customer harassment too.

[empolgation]

Unfortunately we live in a "not-responsible" society. You buy a hot cup of coffee and spill it on yourself - it's the coffee maker's fault. :-/

Good water quality is subjective and water chemistry of a tub will fluctuate. I don't see how a customer can be held responsible for failure due to someone's opinion of poor water quality - unless of course the heater failed because of jello shots and crisco.

Water chemistry, whether or not the quality of the water was kept "proper", will have a negative effect on materials - that's one major reason why component warranties are limited to 5 years or less.

[poolboy34]

Here's some more food for thought:  If water chemistry wasn't important, there wouldn't be any reason for pool and spa dealers to have water analysis labs.  There's a reason we offer this service to our customers.  It allows us to educate our customers on how to care for their spa/pool, offer advice and advance tips on caring for their pool/spa, and it also offers the customer a chance to talk to our associates face to face should a problem arise.

Here's another thing to factor in:  How well trained is your dealer's staff in water chemsitry, spa maintenance, and trouble shooting???   This plays a HUUUUUGE role.  A well trained staff can see potential problems BEFORE they happen, and help to educate the customer on the proper ways to care for their pool/spa.  That's why it's important to bring a water sample to your dealer for testing 3-4 times/yr.  You have to go there to buy supplies, so when you do make that annual pilgrimage make sure to tote along a sample of spa water.  

Taking the 10-15 mins a week to care for your pool/spa will help prevent problems from ever occuring, and will ultimately save you, the consumer, money.  

Here's an example.  Say you have an average size inground pool, 16 x 32, w/ diving end, and DE filter.  That's roughly 24000 gallons of water.  It gets infested with algae.  To get rid of that algae bloom (using our costs) will take ATLEAST 8 one LB bags of shock/ or 10 gallons of liquid chlorine, plus 1-2 32oz bottles of a concentrated algacide, 1 bottle of filter cleaner, and roughly one 25LB of DE.  This will cost you approximately: 70$

Now this doesn't even include the amount of time it will take to brush the walls, constantly recharge the filter, vacuum the pool, shock the pool atleast twice (pre-dissolving granular shock if used), cleaning the DE filter (which for those of us who have used a Hayward Perflex DE filter know this is a royal PITA), cleaning the filter elements, disposing of the cleaning solution...etc....


Now if you had properly maintained your pool for the entire season it would have cost you approximately: 85$

Which is better, paying 85$ for proper maintenance over a 4 month period?  OR having to pay atleast 70$ in ONE SHOT to clean up a hideous looking pool?


Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & caldera Dealer

[KC-SWO]

As a person new to owning a hottub I can say that water chemistry, and learning to maintain it properly was my biggest concern.

There are a lot of different methods suggested by a lot of different sources when trying to learn.

When I was looking to decide what chemicals I would use with my new tub, I was told to find my local SpaGuard dealer.  While not the cheapest chemicals, they are not outragous in price, and they also do free water tests, and keep a log of your water quality.  My SpaGuard dealer suggested that I bring a water sample in once a week until I got used to maintaining the tub, then approx once a month when convienient after a few weeks.  The log kept by this could easily show how a tub was maintained.

I do not believe in the not-responsible attitude that society has adopted.  If I own something it gets used, not abused.  And it WILL get maintained.

[HotTubMan]

In another thread someone wrote:

Actually,  I have only had the tub for about 6 weeks, so the water is fairly new.  I did give it a little extra chlorine last night.  To be honest, I have not done much more than add chlorine every couple of days.  The saleperson told me not to worry about much else.  It has an ozonater, isn't that supposed to keep the chemicals in check? I will check the water readings and post them.  Thanks guys.

In this case, I would place some blame on the dealer if some problems arose due to poor water chemistry.This is assuming that this person did not log on here and learn something, just continued to follow the dealers advice.

Its the only "magic pixie dust" theory that ozone will take care of everything.

It drives me nuts when someone leads customers to beleive this kind of thing and I lose a sale only to see them in my store looking for help with the water chemistry, complaing how they were mis-lead.

[empolgation]

Here's another thing to factor in:  How well trained is your dealer's staff in water chemsitry, spa maintenance, and trouble shooting???   This plays a HUUUUUGE role.  

Indeed! How many postings have you read on this forum alone about bad water maintenance advice given by a dealer?

When I went into the dealer with a water sample and asked for an analysis I was told... "The testing lab is over there, knock yourself out I have no idea how to use it."

Who would be at fault if the dealer is not well trained and a component fails due to "improper" water quality - Customer, Dealer, Manufacturer? In Steve's example the customer had a history of low PH and Alk brought into the store and the heater element failed; would the dealer be at "fault" rather than the customer?

[HotTubMan]

I think one could argue that the dealer had some responsibility if they gave advice like the dealer in my example above, but not in yours. In your example, the dealer basically pleaded ignorance. In my example, the dealer advised neglect.