Education on Arctic Spas

[Steve]

As someone who comes from many years with one manufacturer and then changed, I can tell you that I understand how someone can be totally brainwashed into thinking that there's only one way to do it. THERE'S NOT!

I'm not saying that I now think Beachcomber is a weak product but I can tell you that it took a while to de-program from the marketing hoopla. One day stabone will do the same, but until then, he will continue this transfer of misinformation until he takes the time to really open his eyes and explore on his own. We are often robots that are willing to pass on any information from head office and put whatever spin we feel makes sense to us. The concern is that sometimes the information is so misleading that other industry professionals get their panties in a bunch and will try to expose this. Consider my panties bunched!

The problem here is that we are dealing with a company that is willing to generate an abundance of lies and half-truths and draw the focus away from their poor shell designs, filtration and overall poor engineering to make a point that translates into an average tub that costs similar to most other brands to operate. When you consider how uncomfortable and expensive these spas are and the likes of the people selling them, it still translates into poor value at the end of the day regardless of the marketing machine behind it.

Since I doubt we'll ever see real answers to any of our previous questions, let me ask this;

Please insert your average operating costs based on a family of 4 using the these spas 5 times a week at 32F. Let's suggest that each spa is used for a total of 1 hour per day and during this time, 2-4HP pumps are running for 30 minutes of that time.

Arctic average cost per month - $

Beachcomber average cost per month - $

Marquis average cost per month - $

Hot Springs average cost per month - $

Coleman average cost per month - $

Sundance average cost per month - $

Jacuzzi average cost per month - $

Hydropool average cost per month - $

What I don't want is a cut & paste of your "independent study". I want to know what YOU truly believe these spas operate at given the above equation. I suggest you do some research on the spas you're not familiar with to gather your well thought out response. I'm assuming you know ALL of them though as you have claimed superiority with your product. I'm guessing you can't do that until you've examined them all in a detailed fashion.

I will unbunch myself while waiting patiently for your response...

Steve

[Mendocino101]

I have a question why does it matter whether your spa loses 6 degrees indoors or 6 degrees out doors...meaning......I lost 7 degrees indoors over 4 days and just say another spa lost 10 would it not transfer to the same kind of a loss outdoors as well....to say any spa in doors will hold temp with out power  is simply not true.....and if you carry the loss to outside conditions the difference would only increase in the harsher environment but the spa that held better indoors is not going to suddenly lose heat faster outside.....again the difference will only increase and become more dramatic  as the conditions change....

[Steve]

I think we need to, after all how often do we get to see a Steve tyraid these days? (don't ya just love those! )

If it drags him out of the Hydropool shadows to enlighten some poor unsuspecting fool with his unique brand of knowledge mixed with sarcasm then I'm all for it!

A "Steve tyraid"? Geez, we have a name for them now! My wife calls them something totally different but yours is put in a way that can be posted here at least!

Steve

[Mendocino101]

Please insert your average operating costs based on a family of 4 using the these spas 5 times a week at 32F. Let's suggest that each spa is used for a total of 1 hour per day and during this time, 2-4HP pumps are running for 30 minutes of that time.

Steve,

It would be tough for me to give an accurate read on that temp but lets say at this time of the year here where I live and tub ( so cal) using the tub at night when it has been in the upper 30's to low 40's....It would run me about 25 to 28...29 dollars a month
To run My Marquis Euphoria spa....

[Brewman]

It's not even estimated cost per month in dollars, but estimated power consumption per month in KWH.  
We pay about $.07 per KWH for our power.  Some areas of the country may pay double that.  But if our spas consume the same power, they are equally efficient or close enough for me.  But one costs double to operate than the other, due to no fault of the spa.
Brewman

[Steve]

Sorry guys... that question was directed at stabone and you're right Brewman, KWH costs will make an impact on that question. To simplify it, let's base it on $0.07 per KWH.

My goal here is to find out in stabones mind anyway, what the serious impact is financially to own an Arctic spa over the others I mentioned. Sorry for not making that clear...

Steve

[stabone]

spahappy that would be great but what does that prove if I do mine in warmer weather, on a less windy day than yours, I really didn't want this topic to turn out this way and I am so played out by all our sales pitch, stuff, the point is not which tubs run for a dollar or two more or less a month, my point for this was that most thermal panel tubs are not using the same insulation style as Arctic, even thermo spa uses thermo bond which has an insulating factor in their shell, and tubs that use insulation on there shells are not recovering the heat off the pumps at the scale that Arctics do. Whether or not it is in a showroom or 20below.  We can go round and round on these points, forever, on filtering, pumps, plumbing, boards, etc.  There is no point I can make, to change your minds or vis versa, maybe we should all really push for our manufactures to get together and conduct a test that will be recognized by all participants, as an accurate unbiased test.
  From what I have seen on the market, I sell a tub with a thicker, stronger shell, cabinet, floor, cover, than what I sell against.  There are tons of features, jets, lighting, even shell designs that I would love to see added to are line up. I believe in my product and I am happy to see you fellas feel the same about yours,  we all work in a great industry, and it benefits us all to embrace the advancements each of our manufactures makes to strenghten the industry as a whole, we all know from experience that the shmucks will weed themselves out, I do not want to come off as what you feel a typical Arctic guy is, I really do love this business and have meet so many great people in it, and I'm sure you guys fall into that same class.  Good luck to all of you, and happy Holidays.  Better go plug my heater back in it's getting cold in the showroom !!!!!

[Chas]

On to filtering, Is a continious running circ pump and a huge filter or numerous filters all that advanced. Do you know why all circ pump filtered tubs have over sized filters, all it is for is to prolong the time between filters having to be cleaned,

Duh!!

as you know a circ pump is caring a heavy load,

No, they are not. They move water through a system which was and is designed to do exactly what it is doing. They draw about 85watts.

and working against gravity located beneth the water,  

Weeeell, where I live gravity makes things go down. That means that the circ pump, located below the waterline would have gravity workin in it's favor. Is it not so where you live??

larger filters take longer for depree to slow down water flow so to put less strain on the pump, so just because you have filter sizes rated for 10,000 gallons of water does not make the filtering better,

It certainly does, and it also means the owner spends less time cleaning filters. I think this is a good thing - do you advocate a smaller filter so your customres have to work harder?

nor does running a circ pump all the time give you any more turn over rate,

Um, I may be missing something here, but are you saying that having a pump run all the time moves less water than if we shut it off for part of the time? I don't get it.

We have a 900 sp ft filter that filters down to 1 micron, while you are still using paper filters.

Wow !! 900 square feet !! That's an amazing claim. I read it on the web site. But how do they back that up? A filter which is the 'equivelant of a 900 Sq ft pleated filter' would be huge. Your disposable filter is about the same size as a standard filter. But it has no pleats at all. To the untrained eye I would say that means it has LESS surface area than a large pleated filter. OK - so it may have depth. But if you have a filter that is filtering down to 1 micron, it is going to be very susceptible to clogging with oils. What does one cost, and how often is it going to need to be replaced. Wait, I'm not sure I want to hear that answer from you, 'bone.' Any Arctic owners out there who could help here?

It is a great concept but no tub has true no by pass filtering with all the pumps on high speed, so if you believe that, well its BUNK!!!

except, of course, oh HotSpring products. If you can find a bypass, I'll eat it. Or have one of my faithful employees eat it...

I have to run friends, will talk soon!!

Me too - but I'll try to get back soon.

[stuart]

It is a great concept but no tub has true no by pass filtering with all the pumps on high speed, so if you believe that, well its BUNK!!!

It amazes me that you speak with such authority and yet with so much ignorance! I can name 2 off the top of my head, HotSpring and Marquis. Both where "closed loop" systems without a bypass even plumed in last time I looked!

Don't try and be an expert on brands you obviously know nothing about. Try and do some research and shopping before making such statements.

I did not post anything negative on Arctic until I went through the complete sales pitch, researched the forums, had a salesman pull the panels to look inside, sat in one and even read the owners manual in addition to doing a complete background history on the company including Darcy Amendt. So as you lamely post untrue statements understand that there are those of us that try to back up what we say….

[Lori]

Ok, sorry, but I have to agree with tony and chas!  No bypass in my Vanguard!

I think I'll go look!  Be back in a while!!!

[stabone]

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

[Lori]

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

Ok, I am no expert, and I hate these threads, but I have to ask you to explain that statement.  Yes the water is being pushed around the filters and then down (I fill the tub through the circ pump filter pipe) through the filter pipes into the heater (please forgive me, this is a basic explanation, don't slam me for being just a user, not a dealer) and then back into the tub through the drain in the bottom.

So, where is the unfiltered water going?  The weir door keeps the water from circulation back into the tub, other than the filter pipe.

What am I missing?

[stabone]

Chas I think you forgeting that the pump has to return the water, so unless your pump has no return side hooked up, it has to pump it back up, I'm not sure, but that's what happens where I live

[Tman122]

First of all any thermal panel tub that has insulation on the shell of it's tub will have very little heat transfer from air space to the water,  By using a fiberglass shell with NO insulation on it you don't block the heat from the water away from the air space, nor the heat from the pumps from the water. The last coleman I  saw had insulation on the shell, How can you argue that insulation will allow the same amount of heat transfer as fiberglass!!!

OK one at a time. If it works (the heat transfer thing) then what happens when the pumps aren't running, you know the other 16 hours of every single day? Is the insulation suffiecient to keep out the cold? Or would more insulation be better?

[Tman122]

After all, run time is only 1/3rd of the tubs life. Lets talk about the other 2/3rds or majority of it's life. Or are we supposed to filter more than we need in order to create insulation R-Factor? Please don't say yes.