Education on Arctic Spas

[tonyp]

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

Huh?  Pushed around the filters to where?  I'm not a Spa dealer either only an engineer, so I guess I need a better explaination to understand.

[stabone]

You guys go on about how much heat your covers that are usually 3 to 2 inch holds in, which in any insulated structure is (supossed) to be the most important, so why is it so crazy to believe that 4 to 5 inch of insulation all around the tub will not hold heat, in a sealed air space, and also our cabinets are sealed way better than covers

[Mendocino101]

stabone.....you are great at injecting knew claims and raising more questions but very poor at answering questions already posed....

[txwillie]

This guy truely has no concept of fluid mechanics.

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

It seems that he is somehow saying that the water that has to be drawn into the filters to get to the pump suction somehow gets pushed around them at low flow?

Chas I think you forgeting that the pump has to return the water, so unless your pump has no return side hooked up, it has to pump it back up, I'm not sure, but that's what happens where I live

This is really good. If the water level is above the return (I assume the return on a HS spa is below the water level ) then there is a net positive head on the pump suction. What that means is that the pump is not pushing water against gravity.

Whatever.

oh BTW, txwille = mechanical engineer

[stabone]

Let me put it in different terms,  at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two,   so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,

[txwillie]

Did you start drinking today at lunch or before?

Let me put it in different terms,  at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two,   so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,

This car wash analogy is just plain stoopid. Go back and read it again. SLOWLY, and as many times as you have to.

Filter velocity and filter efficiency have NOTHING to do with each other. But, and this is just my guess/opinion, the current pattern produced by a jet pump on low during a filter cycle will improve the overall filtering capability of the system vs. a circ. pump that probably does not flow enough to create any type circulation pattern in the tub.

I'm out. Not gonna waste any more time on this.

txwillie

[Chas]

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about, and I have a very strong feeling that you don't either.

HotSpring has no bypass filtration. Here's a picture:

Now, if you are saying that our system doesn't work as designed, then I'm afraid you're going to have to back that up with something other than what I have seen you post so far.

It works, and works well. The new HP tubs have the Tri-X filtration system which has up to 300 square feet of filtering area. They need that much since they have the largest pumps ever put in a HotSpring tub, and since they have NO BYPASS.

(Do you think I'm gettin' through here??)  

[Chas]

Let me put it in different terms,  at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two,   so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,

Yeah, but which one would have more fun?? I love watching those car wash guys jumpin' out of the way as I scream through. Now - what was the point? Are you trying to slam HotSpring's filtering system here?

This is just a guess, based on what you have written here, but  I think somebody has told you that our flow rate is too high to do a good job. You need to get your money back from whoever that was - they didn't do a good job of educating you.

HotSpring has a great filtering system. It works, and works well. We also have great jets, a cool lighting system and some sharp water features, an awesome insulation scheme which ends up costing about $10 to $20 per month to keep hot and enjoy it around here (power costs around a quarter per killiwatt hour here) and an excellant warranty. We have informed salespeople who generally do not try to sell by downplaying or demeaning the other tubs out there.

You ought to give it a try. I can promise you one thing with just about absolute certainty: you are not going to sell anyone on Arctic this way. Sorry. At least, not here.  

[Chas]

You guys go on about how much heat your covers that are usually 3 to 2 inch holds in, which in any insulated structure is (supossed) to be the most important, so why is it so crazy to believe that 4 to 5 inch of insulation all around the tub will not hold heat, in a sealed air space

Well, if the airspace is sealed, then your pumps are going to burn up. If you have a blower, I assume it will draw from that air space, so I guess we know why you are offering metal cabinets: so the blower can't suck the sides in when it comes on.

You have a common misconception: the cover is not the most important. I'm assuming you think that heat goes up. It doesn't. Yes, hot AIR will rise if free to do so - such as in an large open chamber inside of a TP spa. In fact, it will get some air currents going which tends to cool the system quite well. But back to the 'heat rises' thing: heat will go in any direction from hot to cold. Any direction.  So the cover is important, but the entire insulation scheme is important. The top, sides and bottom.  I have sold extra-heavy covers (Robert's sell a 6 to 4 incher) and had people put them on uninsulated tubs. They didn't get the expected results. Physical laws are just that: laws.

[stuart]

Can you see a "bypass" here?

[poolboy34]

noooooooope, nooooooooooo bypass there.  The car wash analogy was really off base.  A low amp circulation pump circulates the water slowly to allow the filter cartridge media to pick up very fine particles.  Now when the jet pumps are engaged this allows for the filtering of LARGE particles, since a circ pump usually doesn't cause enough turbulance to pick up large particles, and they therefore sink to the bottom.  This is why many manufacturers who have circ pumps also utilize 2 "power" filtration cycles a day in addition to the 24 hr circ pump.  Just for added piece of mind.   Does Hot springs and Marquis' no bypass filtration effectively keep your spas water crystal clear??? YES!!!  Does the above mentioned system that D-1 and Caldera incorporate keep their spas water crystal clear??? YES!!!!  

NOW, please explain how arctic's filtration works.  So we can more accurately compare it to the fuiltration systems on a hot spring, Caldera, marquis, and D-1 Spa.  

I dunno............sounds like a lot of smoke & mirrors to me, i guess I'm just used to the fact based, well thought out answers that Steve, Stuart, Chas, mendo, Dr. Spa, & HTM give on a regular basis.

Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & caldera dealer

Ok, time for college bball.  GO CUSE!!!

[ebirrane]

I am very aware of Hotsprings, their piping is no by pass, but that does not mean that water at those gallons per minute are not being pushed around the filters, the Ideal of no by pass plumbing is a good one and the play out of it in it's form now is better than not to.

That doesn't even make sense.  Was the double negative on purpose?  What does:

play out of it in it's form now is better than not to

mean?

-Ed

[ebirrane]

Let me put it in different terms,  at the flow rate it is more the quality of filtering than the actual path of the water, if you take 2 equally dirty cars to a pull through car wash and ones goes through in neutral on their belt and the other goes through at 60mph which will come out cleaner. I bet there would be a big difference between the two,   so like I said the Ideal is good, and it is better than not going through at all,

Filter velocity isn't a variable in filtering.  Let's do some more "proof by analogy"...

Take a keyhole and gently push a sofa against it.  Notice how it does not go through the keyhole.

Now, move the sofa back and, with a running start, push the sofa into the keyhole are hard and as quickly as possible.  

Note that the sofa has, indeed, still not gone through the keyhole.

Unless you imply that the water is being shot through the filter with enough force to damage the filter (which is a completely different claim).

Is that what you are saying?

-Ed

[stabone]

If you are considering that water is the same density as a couch that would be great,

[Steve]

Ahhhhhh, the 'ol "sofa through the keyhole" analogy!

Steve