Caldera or Hot Springs ?

[pantherkat]

Hi, I am new to the forum and new to the idea of a spa.  We just returned from a home show and compared Hot Springs and Caldera.  Knowing they are the same manufacturer, we were hoping to find honest answers about the differences between the two.  Of course each dealer tooted his own horn, and downplayed the spas they were not selling
Has anyone compared these two spas ?  Quality? Maintenance ? Performance ?  Comfort? We are leaning specifically towards the HS Envoy or the Caldera Geneva Utopia.... and the big question - is it worth the BIG $$$$ ?
Thank you in advance for any advice  :-/

[Chas]

They are not made by the same companies. Caldera spas are made in the Caldera plant, HS, Tiger River, Solana are made in the Watkins MFG plant in Vista.

There are many differences.
Shell - HS is thermoplastic, Calder is laminated fiberglass/acrylic
Jets - HS has small, medium, large and extra large, plus a couple of pattented jets: Moto Massage and Soothing Seven.
Caldera has a single filter and bypass. HS has mutliple filters and no bypass.
HS has no blowers available.
Control systems are the same, but Caldera has a couple of extra functions dealing with the blower and so forth.
Colors are dfferent
Siding is different.
Seating is very different - a wet test is a must.

[salesdvl]

They are not made by the same companies. Caldera spas are made in the Caldera plant, HS, Tiger River, Solana are made in the Watkins MFG plant in Vista.

Chas, Where is the Caldera plant?

[poolboy34]

Chas..........the "caldera" plant is the WATKINS plant, the same place where Hot Spring, tiger river, etc are made.......they are just made in a seperate section of the watkins plant.  

[poolboy34]

Isn't the only thermoplastic shell that hot springs offers the endurol?  B/c I'm pretty sure the other colored shells are acrylic/fiberglass lamanent.

[Chas]

Isn't the only thermoplastic shell that hot springs offers the endurol?  B/c I'm pretty sure the other colored shells are acrylic/fiberglass lamanent.

No. HotSpring does not offer a laminated fiberglass shell. They use Quarite Plus, which is Acrylic backed by ABS plastic. It is cast in two layers, which means it can't come apart. It arrives at the plant as a single, thick sheet of thermoplastic. The Endurol is also backed with ABS, and also arrives at the plant as a single thick sheet.

Here's a clip from the web site:

Elegant pearlescent and metalescent shells provide a smooth look and feel, while vibrant granite-like shells offer a textured choice. An acrylic surface layer is co-laminated to an impact resistant ABS substrate, fused together in a controlled, automated process.

[Chas]

Chas..........the "caldera" plant is the WATKINS plant, the same place where Hot Spring, tiger river, etc are made.......they are just made in a seperate section of the watkins plant.  

Well - I will have to admit that I'm not 100 % sure about this one. I have toured the factory many times, and the last time I did so there was a section in which they were finishing off Caldera spas. But it was my understanding that they molded them, 'glassed them, plumbed them and built the cabinets at the Caldera plant. Then they were transported to the Watkins plant for completion. So sorry, I don't know where the Caldera plant is - I'm not a Caldera Dealer, and there is no address on the web site. It is entirely possible that they have moved all of the manufacturing to the Watkins plant by now - but they are still two very different tubs, built by two completely different teams of people, and most decidedly sold by two different networks of dealers.

The finishing does happen at the Watkins plant, and that included the control system and pumps - I would assume the water test also takes place at the Watkins plant, and I do know without a doubt that they are all shipped from that plant.

[poolboy34]

When I toured the plant this past february they were building the caldera tubs right there, everything from the frames, plumbing, insulation, etc.....  The only things that weren't made at the Vista Plant were the shells and cabinetry panels which are made in the plant in Mexico, which I believe is also the case for all of Watkins other spa lines as well.  I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well.  Yes, I agree that both brands are distinct from one another, but they have a lot more similarities then differences.  This becomes more evident when you see the entire manufacturing process, and have seen the spas made from start to finish.

Jason,
Store Manager for  D-1 & Caldera Dealer.

[Chas]

When I toured the plant this past february they were building the caldera tubs right there, everything from the frames, plumbing, insulation, etc.....  The only things that weren't made at the Vista Plant were the shells and cabinetry panels which are made in the plant in Mexico, which I believe is also the case for all of Watkins other spa lines as well.

No, the HotSpring Tiger River and Solana tubs go from flat sheets to finished spas right in the Vista plant. Only the covers are made in Mexico. Tell me: did you get to tour the entire HotSpring production line? I ask this because I did NOT get to tour the Caldera area. In fact the more I tried to poke into it the more I got the feeling I was not welcome. I am going to tour the plant again in Jan, I'll see if things have changed. By the way, I sure wouldn't rule out any of the things you mentioned: Watkins is not afraid to change things. But as of six months ago the HotSpring lines never left Vista until they were shipped to a dealer. I saw Caldera spas going into the Caldera area partially completed, and then coming out another door to be stacked alongside HotSpring finished tubs ready to ship.

 I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well.

Well, that's an interesting point, and not real comfortable to discuss for most HotSpring or Caldera dealers, I'm afraid.

Yes, I agree that both brands are distinct from one another, but they have a lot more similarities then differences.  This becomes more evident when you see the entire manufacturing process, and have seen the spas made from start to finish.

I'm sure that as time goes by, the processes will become more and more alike. But as a long-time HotSpring dealer, I can point out more differences than similarities. BUT - I can also point out several new features which have shown up on the HotSpring spas since Caldera came on the scene. This makes a lot of sense to me.

[Chris_H]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Caldera, when Watkins purchased the brand was not an ISO9001 certified spa, but Hotspring was certified.  Now Caldera is certified.  It is the manufacturing facility that receives the certification not the spa.  With that statement, it is my understanding that Caldera is built in the Watkins plant in Vista unless they got that other plant certified.

Off topic, but if you are wondering if ISO9001 is a big deal, I was going to Philadelphia from New Jersey, and I passed a manufacturing facility on the highway that was advertising how they just got ISO9001 certified.  

The facility was in Camden, which was just rated the most dangerous city in American.  I got a chuckle out of the sign and where the facility was located.

[poolboy34]

The shells for the cladera's are vacuum molded in the mexico plant and shipped to the vista plant where they are framed, plumbed, insulated, etc....  So in that respect what you said is true.  Chris H makes a great point about the ISO certification of Caldera now that they are owned and operated by Watkins.  And yes, I too was shunned from the "other" side of the watkins plant (Hot Spring, Tiger River), although I did get a chance to see the finished products prior to them being wrapped.  You are right, Watkins is very guarded when it comes to showing it's various dealers the products they offer...i.e. Not allowing hot spring dealers to see the Caldera side of the plant and vice versa.  It's my understanding that Watkins is treating Caldera as an entirely seperate product line from their other lines.  Reguardless of all of this, BOTH products are top notch.

Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer

[IBinit4fun]

I don't know how it is on the left coast but out here It's not uncommon for the Hot Spring Dealers to also carry caldera Spas as well.

A dealer here in Cincinnati sells Hot Springs, Cladera, and Cal Spas...go figure.

[ebirrane]

Off topic, but if you are wondering if ISO9001 is a big deal, I was going to Philadelphia from New Jersey, and I passed a manufacturing facility on the highway that was advertising how they just got ISO9001 certified.  

In a past life I was an ISO 9001 internal auditor.  If the caldera tubs are molded elsewhere and then assembled at Vista they can still be certified, but there are special inspections on the "subcontractor" doing the molding.

As for the benefit of ISO9001, some people build crud with it, and some people build terrific products w/o it.

It does guarantee that many key manufacturing trouble spots have had some thought applied to them, and that regular training occurs, equipment stays calibrated, etc...

Last I checked, though, ISO doesn't rate the quality of the process, just that there is a process and that the process is communicated and followed.

-Ed

[Spatech_tuo]

Hi, I am new to the forum and new to the idea of a spa.  We just returned from a home show and compared Hot Springs and Caldera.  Knowing they are the same manufacturer, we were hoping to find honest answers about the differences between the two.  Of course each dealer tooted his own horn, and downplayed the spas they were not selling
Has anyone compared these two spas ?  Quality? Maintenance ? Performance ?  Comfort? We are leaning specifically towards the HS Envoy or the Caldera Geneva Utopia.... and the big question - is it worth the BIG $$$$ ?
Thank you in advance for any advice  :-/

Both are very good spas but are certainly separate entities. Wet test both and let that be your guide as to which suits you best.

[Chas]

Both are very good spas but are certainly separate entities. Wet test both and let that be your guide as to which suits you best.

This is the best statement in this thread.

Wish I'd said it....