Air blowers

[Brewman]

Ed is correct in that when we activate the Blower in the Optima, there is an initial rush in of cool air- you can feel it out of the bubbler jets.  If neither of the pumps are running, then the water temperature will decrease by a few degrees over time.  I think the heater kicks on when the water temp. drops 2 degrees from the temerature setting.  If we turn on the bubbler when both pumps are cranking, the cooling affect of the blower is less noticible.  
This is what I've observed from using our blower.
The blower does add an interesting dimension to the soak, often we don't use it, but Mrs. Brewman likes it, so every so ofter we fire it up.  The aroma bead thing doesn't work very well at all.  Not sure if it's to do with the quality of the scent beads or what.  Our dealer seems to be not carrying the beads, they only have a scant selection left.  They seem to be pushing the Baqua/Brillinace scents instead.
Brewman

[tony]

I have never experienced the heater not keeping up with the air blower.

[salesdvl]

I guess I have always looked at it from the ambient air temperature prospective.  To me, if you have a spa sitting outside in zero degree air and you turn on the blower you will have a pretty decent rate of cool down.  Even with the air coming from the motor area that is heated and heated air blower the air that is hitting the main spa area cannot be close to the 104 water temp therefore it would cool it rapidly.  By rapidly I mean much faster than if the same spa were used without the blower on.
But I could be wrong. Afterall it was Hot Spring that told me this.  

[Chas]

It will cool the water, but not as drastically as you make it out to be.  I can say with great certainty if you went to the local Sundance dealer and turned on the air blower and the two therapy pumps, you would not see the temperature go down in a half hour of use. This is going be the case because of the insulation and heater that Sundance is using.

Ok, but turn off the heater and see what happens. The blower moves a much higher volume of air than the jets. And yes, the pump shroud does help because the pump motor creates a good amount of hot air, which would not work for a blower but does work for the smaller amount of air going into the jets.

Let’s look at this from a different perspective.  
If you induce air using the therapy pumps in both the Hotspring and Sundance the spa can’t have air and not reduce the temperature in the spa.  Just by inducing air you will reduce the temperature.

Perhaps, but not by much - keep in mind that the air volume going into the jets is tiny compared to the amount from a blower.

 Please don’t even respond, well, Hotspring uses a pump shroud.  It minimizes the reduction in temperature.  The shroud does not stop the spa from cooling.

No - but it does greatly reduce the amount of cooling, and in warm climates yes it can stop the cooling. The point is not does air in a spa cool it, the point is that a blower pushes a huge amount of air while the jets draw a small amount of air. And the shrould IS able to make a big difference. Now, turn on the heaters in both spas, and you may still have a problem: if your Sundance is running less than 60 amp service, the heater is programmed to go off when all the pumps and blower are on.  So it's not even part of the picture. The HS system can run all pumps and heat at the same time.

The air blower will lower the temperature of the spa.

True.  

How come Hotspring is able to keep the temperature of the spa the same when inducing the air?  Mainly because of the heater and insulation.  This is also the case in the Sundance even if it has an extra pump that just emits air.

Yes these spas have an excellant heater, and are well insulated. But the reason the HS can keep it's heat while running is more than that. The pump shroud helps a lot. The fact that the circ pump is tied into all the other systems to keep a little water moving in all the areas of the spa including the plumbing so you don't turn on the jets and get a blast of cold water also helps. Insulated motor compartment, insulated plumbing which is kept away from the outside of the tub and other design features all help. And of course, no blower.

About raising the sanitizer to eye level, most consumers use MPS before each use.  MPS has no noticeable affects to the consumer during use.  Your reference is a sales scare tactic.  It is true, yes, but does it really have an affect on the user, absolutely not.

I would disagree. Keep in mind that I have sold hundreds of spas from other makers with blowers. As a side note, Caldera spas do come with blowers. And blowers do raise a cloud of sanitizer to eye level. It even happens in in-ground tubs. Go to a hotel/motel and try it. Now, I don't know if I agree that 'most people' use MPS - but it doesn't matter. If its MPS, then it dissipates almost instantly, and since it is oderless, you don't smell it anyway. But you are still breathing it. If its chlorine, you smell it and breate it. etc.  Scare tactic? Its a simple fact. Are you saying that somehow a certain brand of tub has found a way to pass a large volume of air through a body of water and NOT do this? Sorry, but the spas I sold with blowers did the exact same thing. I told the customers to be sure to add chlroine after use, and not to use the blower when the chlorine levels were high - as they might be right after a shock treatment.

Also, in regards to the removal of the air blower or the flooding of the lines, the manufacturers that use an air blower have an automatic setting that the air blower will turn on every 12 hours to un-flood the lines.

That's true Chris, but that's not what I'm talking about - I simply mentioned that to illustrate that many of our customers, when faced with a large repair bill to replace a blower, tell us not to bother because they don't use it enough to warrant the expense. That's all - I find that most of our customers with blower just don't end up using them . Yes, I know there are some folks who love them, some of the folks here on this forum have said so. But I think that is a small percentage of the spa-buyers out there.


You accused me of using a sales scare tactic - let me offer this: I find that the biggest reason spa makers put blowers on tubs is to sell tubs. When you walk into a store and the sales person hits the blower button - it is impressive. Even a tub with garbage jets and crummy pumps can look awesome while the blower is running. And hook the blower to the air system on the jets (a la Cal and others) and you get "turbocharged" jets. Wow - that would make just about any jets sytem look real good.

And many makers have found ways to quiet the blowers down, so the air hitting the water is the noisiest part.

But I stand by my statement that most users simply don't enjoy the blower long term.

[Dr_Eclat]

I did not buy a Caldera because it has air jets which during the wet test did exactly what Chas says, causing discomfort to my eyes and breathing in sanitizer fumes. I did buy a spa with a blower using the turbocharged jets methodology and really like it. I can keep the whirlpool and volcano jets open half way and still get plenty of pressure in the seat jets. The volcano provides wonderful thigh and leg massage, by the way.

My next spa will also have a turbocharge blower.

[Chris_H]

PART I

Chas,

Chas Quote:      “Ok, but turn off the heater and see what happens. The blower moves a much higher volume of air than the jets. And yes, the pump shroud does help because the pump motor creates a good amount of hot air, which would not work for a blower but does work for the smaller amount of air going into the jets.”

I was stating if you did all of those things (turn therapy pump and air blower on) you would not see a noticeable difference in the temperature.  I think with the posts that have been stated by Sundance owners in this thread you can pretty much see that the temperature will not be drastically be reduced.

Chas Quote:      “Perhaps, but not by much - keep in mind that the air volume going into the jets is tiny compared to the amount from a blower.”

Just curious, can you prove to me that there is more air created from the air blower than the therapy pumps?  I ask because when I sit in a Grandee with no air on, I feel nothing coming from the moto-massage precision jets, and I cannot feel the moto-massage going up and down.  After adding air, I feel them.  I think Hotspring adds a lot of air to their spas.  

You are saying that the air blower cools the water drastically, I ask you to go to your local Sundance dealer and run everything for 30 minutes.  Tell me if you see a difference.  The blower does not lower the temperature as drastically as you make it out to be.  This is my main and only point because I agree with the majority of everything else that you say in regards to air blowers.  I think you are exaggerating the temperature loss of the air blower.

Chas Quote:      “No - but it does greatly reduce the amount of cooling, and in warm climates yes it can stop the cooling. The point is not does air in a spa cool it, the point is that a blower pushes a huge amount of air while the jets draw a small amount of air. And the shrould IS able to make a big difference. Now, turn on the heaters in both spas, and you may still have a problem: if your Sundance is running less than 60 amp service, the heater is programmed to go off when all the pumps and blower are on.  So it's not even part of the picture. The HS system can run all pumps and heat at the same time.”

I disagree by adding air of any kind, in any spa, you will cool the spa using a shroud or not.  If the shroud reduces the cooling that is great, but any type of air still cools the spa.  

You then discuss in your post how Hotspring can heat and run the jets at once.  I think I would prefer to have options in my electrical than not have any at all.  Running at 60 amps everything stays on for the Sundance.  As I stated before, the temperature does not reduce as drastically as you make it out.

It is not my Sundance.  I don’t own a Sundance.  Please do not accuse me of being Sundance.  That would be inappropriate.  

Chas Quote:      “Yes these spas have an excellant heater, and are well insulated. But the reason the HS can keep it's heat while running is more than that. The pump shroud helps a lot. The fact that the circ pump is tied into all the other systems to keep a little water moving in all the areas of the spa including the plumbing so you don't turn on the jets and get a blast of cold water also helps. Insulated motor compartment insulated plumbing which is kept away from the outside of the tub and other design features all help. And of course, no blower.”

You spelled excellent wrong.  There are 12 year olds reading this.  Come on Chas.  

Everything you just said is also true with the Sundance except it has a blower and doesn’t have an insulated motor compartment. Now I am not saying your product is bad, but I disagree with the insulated motor compartment, especially with the Hotspring.  My main reason is for service reasons, I personally don’t like how in many of the Hotspring spas, the repairman has to remove the entire IQ2020 control box to replace a pump seal or to install the SpAudio the technician has remove many of the spa components.  

[Chris_H]

Chas Quote:      “I would disagree. Keep in mind that I have sold hundreds of spas from other makers with blowers. As a side note, Caldera spas do come with blowers. And blowers do raise a cloud of sanitizer to eye level. It even happens in in-ground tubs. Go to a hotel/motel and try it. Now, I don't know if I agree that 'most people' use MPS - but it doesn't matter. If its MPS, then it dissipates almost instantly, and since it is oderless, you don't smell it anyway. But you are still breathing it. If its chlorine, you smell it and breate it. etc.  Scare tactic? Its a simple fact. Are you saying that somehow a certain brand of tub has found a way to pass a large volume of air through a body of water and NOT do this? Sorry, but the spas I sold with blowers did the exact same thing. I told the customers to be sure to add chlroine after use, and not to use the blower when the chlorine levels were high - as they might be right after a shock treatment.”

On a side note, ever have to replace an air injector in an old Coleman?  What a pain in the butt.  

All air still dissipates at eye level.  Is there more of it with a blower?  Yes, but it air is still air and all spas use a lot of it.  The consumer still has to smell and breathe it, with or without an air blower.  

My main reason for this discussion is that you make air blower out to be one of the worse things in spas.  What would you do if Hotspring suddenly started offering an air blower?  Would you still say how bad they are?  Remember when the Hotspring were against colors and two pump systems…
 
In closing, if you decide to respond to this post, I will not post another response to you because there is no reason to keep beating dead horses.  We are both professionals and allowed to have our own opinions even if my opinion is the correct one.  

[ebirrane]

Just curious, can you prove to me that there is more air created from the air blower than the therapy pumps?  I ask because when I sit in a Grandee with no air on, I feel nothing coming from the moto-massage precision jets, and I cannot feel the moto-massage going up and down.  After adding air, I feel them.  I think Hotspring adds a lot of air to their spas.  

Sorry, someone said grandee so I had to post.  

I don't understand your use of air in this regard.  In the grandee there is a button to turn on the jet pump, and then the controls next to the moto-massage (I have always assumed) act like mini-diverters putting water into, or away from, the individual jets.

How are you controlling an air mixture in the grandee?  It seems to me you are saying "if I turn the jets off, I don't feel them, but if I turn them on, I feel them".

I'm confused!

-Ed

[Chas]

You spelled excellent wrong.  There are 12 year olds reading this.  Come on Chas.

Well we were having a civil discussion until this. I can't believe it. Once your argument runs out, it turns into personal attack.

I guess that means I "win."



You know what I miss? The spell check I used to have built into my browser before I switched to Mozilla Firefox. Anyone know of a place to go get one that will work?

[stuart]

Air induction can and will also cool the water but typically not as much as forced air. Sometimes however I believe that it is an illusion as to how much. The evaporative cooling feel of air in water will instantly feel like the water is getting cooler.

Here is a test for you, dip your hand in hot water and then blow on your hand it will instantly feel cooler even though your breath is coming out over 90 degrees, that’s evaporative cooling.

Another thing that has been a factor in adding blowers in the last several years is the practice of injecting the forced air into the jets much like a turbo charger as opposed to just having little “salt and pepper shaker” type jets in the seats that are air only. A example of this would be like when your pouring gas from a gas can you open the little cap on the back of the can for “air induction” and the flow instantly increases, now imagine putting an air compressor fitting over the hole and turning it on, the gas now “shoots” out as opposed to just flowing.

There are things that I like about an air blower in a turbo jet system and I like the feel of the cool air in the hot water. I also like the ability to cool the water when I want, the negatives are that the seat “blower only” jets are usually kind of harsh, I don’t like the water bubbling on the surface splashing me and yes sometimes it does cool the water when I don’t want it to.

Overall, my philosophy is if you can make it work without it as effectively then don’t add it. Chas is right, over the years blowers have had a high fail rate but so have Circ pumps and many people add them still. The reason I bring this up is because it falls within that same philosophy, if you can eliminate systems with more components and pluming while accomplishing similar results why wouldn’t you?

Making those things an option that the customer can choose to pay for or not pay for may be a better solution....

[Brewman]

All right you guys, if I remember this weekend, I will conduct a short experiment.  I'll turn down the temp setting to the Optma to as low as it will go to keep the heater off, then fire up the blower for 20 minutes with the cover off, and see how far the water temp drops.  The ambient temperature for this weekend is somewhere in the low 40 degree range.
Brewman

[Chas]

All right you guys, if I remember this weekend, I will conduct a short experiment.  I'll turn down the temp setting to the Optma to as low as it will go to keep the heater off, then fire up the blower for 20 minutes with the cover off, and see how far the water temp drops.  The ambient temperature for this weekend is somewhere in the low 40 degree range.
Brewman

Cool! Or , uh, it will be soon....

[Brewman]

..............I'll let ya know!

Mrs. Brewman may question my sanity, but sometimes you gotta take one for the team.

Brewman

[TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin]

What is wrong with an air blower during summer time? Seems like a good way to cool down the water if it is getting over heated by sun?

[empolgation]

What is wrong with an air blower during summer time? Seems like a good way to cool down the water if it is getting over heated by sun?

The dry ice injectors do a good job at that too.