GFI Tripping

[gmdodt]

I've checked the wires a bunch and megged the pump itself, all seem fine. I think I am going to call Watkins this morning. I am so tired of this

[bud16415]

If you insist they might put you thru to someone technically knowledgeable.

Whenever I have talked to them I get the we will pass the information on comment.

You really need to talk to their product electrical engineer.   

[gmdodt]

at this point, id be happy enough if they just sent out a tech for free who would actually try to diagnose the problem instead of sticking on a multimeter real quick and saying everything is fine

[bud16415]

Well now you have a movie to show whomever of a GFCI fault happening real time. and you have the problem 95% tracked down for them. If it means switching parts till its fixed they should be forced to do that. 

[gmdodt]

well its out of warranty by like 6 months but i agree since this started under warranty

[Hottubguy]

well its out of warranty by like 6 months but i agree since this started under warranty

Problem is it was never in warranty for you as you bought it secondhand correct?  Did the previous owner have any issues with the tub?

[gmdodt]

They said no, but who knows the truth.  Would have thought if they had problems with it they would have gotten it fixed under warranty.  As far as watkins knows, the tub has not changed ownership, the tub has simply moved to a different house with the owners, which is how I had the pump replaced under warranty

[gmdodt]

I wish I could plug pump 2 into pump 1's slot to iron out if its the pump, but I don't think thatll work given the plumbing and differences in the pumps

[bud16415]

I wish I could plug pump 2 into pump 1's slot to iron out if its the pump, but I don't think thatll work given the plumbing and differences in the pumps

On my Geneva one is single speed and the other double. I don’t think that would work.

I know what you are thinking though.   

[Hottubguy]

Just emailed you something that may help Gmdodt

[gmdodt]

No real update yet.  Still waiting to hear back from Caldera.  Still have camera set up.  Someone was nice enough to send me the Caldera Service manual but unfortunately its a lot less useful than I was hoping.  No troubleshooting or anything in it, just simply confirmed that all the wiring and everything was correct.

[gmdodt]

As an update - I contacted caldera and weve gone back and forth once - still waiting to hear back from them.  I have now caught the tub tripping a second time on camera.  Again, its instantly when the primary pump tried to turn on before a heating session (pump turns on 15 seconds before heat turns on).  Keep in mind that pump was already replaced and the megger didnt read anything "off". Anyone got any thoughts?

Here are the clips of both of them tripping

https://youtu.be/j_z_fgvXRyk

https://youtu.be/S05iFr_7y3I

[bachman]

Tripping issue - far fetched idea maybe....

I got a tub from a friend that either lost interest in hot tubs or may get one for inside the home. They get a brutal cold wind at the outside tub area.

Just after telling us he was gifting it, about a week later he called to say the tub was tripping his breaker. He felt he isolated this to the heater as he unhooked it and the tub pumps cycled and everything was as normal.
I was weary of how it would all work out once I got the tub to my house because I knew dropping the 20 amp draw from a heater would likely keep it from tripping but not necessarily the root cause. Potential for need to do more troubleshooting but hey, I was still getting a free hot tub !!
Add to that I'd be testing my own brand new 50 amp GFCI circuit with a tub known to have a fresh problem.
- I followed his path and ordered a new heater (balboa 5.5 kw) and put in place. Now I was real concerned because the old heater and element appeared to look like new, ohms testing was within range and no apparent short at either element post.
 
The tub fired up perfect and worked fine with pump/s, both speeds and new heater kicking on an off so I was very happy.
Had a co-worker look at the orignial part too and he spotted a bit of rusty looking corrosion near one of the posts for the element connection. It apears to have had moisture there and since this is inside the "brain-box" , we are thinking the water leaked inside-out from the heater tube/element through the post connection. If this only happened once or intermittently, it would explain the issue and why it tests okay now. I was releived to find this out so I have trust in it's operation and feel that was indeed the problem.
There is a nut at the base of the threaded post that is isolated from the heat tube body by a very slim margin. This corrison would have easily shorted there with some moisture that must have been there to cause the rust spot. Likely an age issue with a tub from 2005 but who's to say these fittings couldn't be leaking from new like a bad joint/gasket or seal?

As mentioned, the other way to try things out is unhook one segment at a time like the ozonator or pump one or pump 2 or even the light circuit. Anything could get some moisture in proximity at times if not draw too much current momentarily.
If that tub is tripping every few days, you might be able to find the pattern with tracking what has been isolated as this previous owner did with the heater. Most have a quick connect plug at the board.

[bud16415]

Tripping issue - far fetched idea maybe....

I got a tub from a friend that either lost interest in hot tubs or may get one for inside the home. They get a brutal cold wind at the outside tub area.

Just after telling us he was gifting it, about a week later he called to say the tub was tripping his breaker. He felt he isolated this to the heater as he unhooked it and the tub pumps cycled and everything was as normal.
I was weary of how it would all work out once I got the tub to my house because I knew dropping the 20 amp draw from a heater would likely keep it from tripping but not necessarily the root cause. Potential for need to do more troubleshooting but hey, I was still getting a free hot tub !!
Add to that I'd be testing my own brand new 50 amp GFCI circuit with a tub known to have a fresh problem.
- I followed his path and ordered a new heater (balboa 5.5 kw) and put in place. Now I was real concerned because the old heater and element appeared to look like new, ohms testing was within range and no apparent short at either element post.
 
The tub fired up perfect and worked fine with pump/s, both speeds and new heater kicking on an off so I was very happy.
Had a co-worker look at the orignial part too and he spotted a bit of rusty looking corrosion near one of the posts for the element connection. It apears to have had moisture there and since this is inside the "brain-box" , we are thinking the water leaked inside-out from the heater tube/element through the post connection. If this only happened once or intermittently, it would explain the issue and why it tests okay now. I was releived to find this out so I have trust in it's operation and feel that was indeed the problem.
There is a nut at the base of the threaded post that is isolated from the heat tube body by a very slim margin. This corrison would have easily shorted there with some moisture that must have been there to cause the rust spot. Likely an age issue with a tub from 2005 but who's to say these fittings couldn't be leaking from new like a bad joint/gasket or seal?

As mentioned, the other way to try things out is unhook one segment at a time like the ozonator or pump one or pump 2 or even the light circuit. Anything could get some moisture in proximity at times if not draw too much current momentarily.
If that tub is tripping every few days, you might be able to find the pattern with tracking what has been isolated as this previous owner did with the heater. Most have a quick connect plug at the board.

That is the function of your GFCI breaker. That little bit of corrosion you saw was a short but the reason that didn’t turn into a meltdown and possible life threatening problem is the GFCI shuts the power off the instant it detects a short to ground. If this was wired straight to the breaker in the main panel without the GFCI in line it would have eventually tripped the 50a breaker in the panel when the heater had totally melted down in flames and sent 220v thru the tub water and the combination of paths for the electric to take had totaled more than 50a. This would have taken some time could have caused a fire in the tub or electrocuted people sitting in the water.

That’s why they recommend once a month opening the GFCI panel and pushing the test buttons. Same with kitchen, bath, garage and basement GFCI 120 outlets. Hardly anyone does it but it’s a good idea because even a GFCI can fail.

In the OP’s case he tested the heater with a device called a megger that puts high voltage out enough to cause a short and measure the low resistance, and the heater tested good. He has also once changed the motor that is causing the fault. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have got a bad motor or some of the wiring going to the motor is acting up similar to how your heater was.     

[gmdodt]

Ill also just throw in some other facts such as: my tub is only 2-3 years old, has no "other parts" expect the two pumps and heater, and I've isolated pump2  already and its not the culprit.  I also cant really disconnect pump 1 or the heater or the tub wont function appropriately.  To my knowledge, the heater cant be tripping the gfi because its not even powering or when the tub is tripped.  The heater doesnt get energized for 15 seconds after the pump turns on, and the tub trips right when the pump kicks on.

I do appreciate the thought and advice.  I'm willing to read any story that may help!

(and im not saying its not the heater, it just seems unlikely at this point)