Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?

[swilly1000]

I think the real reason why dealers don't show pricing is not because they can't, or that they would be chased out of business, but because it's in their best financial interest to be opaque. The dealer is at a significant advantage if they can select the price from which to start negotiations.

Exactly!

[Roeboat]

Long Thread. Buyer a hot tub is a luxury item. It's different from car buying. You get out there, visit the dealers, get the brochures and prices and do you due diligence. Then if your smart, you come to a forum like this and get input from some really nice owners and dealer who help you drill down on you decision. My wife keeps asking me how do I know we are getting $5,000 off the Caldera Makena we are looking at, well I know form this forum it's about $3,000 off what they go for.

[castletonia]

Here is my take as a dealer.

There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub.  Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP.  That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover.  It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want.  You also have different price point accessories.  Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer.  Each delivery is different.  Each dealer handles service different.  Some contract out.  Others handle it inhouse.  Some don't charge travel fees and some do.  With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody?  The answer is they can't. 

I invite anyone to argue this statement.  People only hear or read what they want to.  If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000.  They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more.  It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more. 
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.  It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices. 

Most consumers understand that nothing sells for MSRP which means that MSRP is then irrelevant.  Every dealer has different overhead costs, different costs of doing business, which affect what they sell for.  Every business is in business to make money and if you think otherwise, you are mistaken.  I do like to think most are trying to make an honest profit and not screw the customer. 

[bachman]

This post is not meant to defend the industry's pricing policies, but it's a little more nuanced than it appears.

 

When price shopping, these things are often overlooked.  People just want the best "deal".  Sometimes to offer the best deal, these are the corners that get cut.

Again, I agree that our industry could do better than it does.  I'm at least glad that they don't do what the mattress industry does.  Mattress companies change the label and model name for every different store so you cannot compare at all between them.


Sorry for the rant.  I do indeed agree that our industry has issues that need to be addressed, specifically with customer's having difficulty getting prices and comparing.

Here is my take as a dealer.

There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub.  Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP.  That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover.  It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want.  You also have different price point accessories.  Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer.  Each delivery is different.  Each dealer handles service different.  Some contract out.  Others handle it inhouse.  Some don't charge travel fees and some do.  With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody?  The answer is they can't. 

I invite anyone to argue this statement.  People only hear or read what they want to.  If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000.  They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more.  It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more. 
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.  It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices.

Excellent points by both ! 

Silversun points out some specific questions on a few items but in the general scope of things, consumers are trying to get educated fast via the internet, forums and whatever else we find to peruse as 'trusted sources'. At the same time, many good folks as reputable dealers and service centers are vying for customers trying to get them in the door so they can get a shot at building trust/rapport educating them and creating a beneficial relationship. Specialty stores and products really need to represented and backed up this way (expert trained staff and service) versus the big box stores and customers benefit in the long term.
I've been in a specialty business and retail sales side to know this and experience that success with long lists of clients, word of mouth, solid reputation that cuts through the big box, high volume B.S. - Those that net the unsuspecting customers and (unfortunately)  sours them on ALL sales professionals eventually.

HTU- I felt lucky to find that source for learning some on tubs and even though Chris wears a MASTER TUBS bumper sticker on his forehead  (jk).....   He seems sincere in the way he tours some of the plants and expresses his concern or accolades about a few named brands.
The thing that I trust and sticks with me is his line about the few key things every tub maker has to get right or cut corners on as most won't do everything at the optimal level. That makes sense and he seemed to back it up with a number of brands he named as good considerations. I think many can cut through the weeds and find his information helpful as they go shopping and comparing. 

In the end, my situation solved itself before making any big $$ plans just as we were going to go "looking" and an offer of a freebie came up that very day. We were gifted an older but well cared for Marquis, had it professionally moved and are very excited to have it filled and ready to go, first soak was today.

~ bachman 

[swilly1000]

I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.

Have you tried publicizing your pricing?

[silversun]

Here is my take as a dealer.

There are a lot of variables that go into the price of the hot tub.  Most manufacturer's do have an MSRP.  That MSRP is for the hot tub and usually the cover.  It doesn't include a step, cover lift, chemical kit, shipping from the manufacturer to the dealer, delivery from the dealer to the customer, or any other accessory you may want.  You also have different price point accessories.  Shipping will cost more the further you are from the manufacturer.  Each delivery is different.  Each dealer handles service different.  Some contract out.  Others handle it inhouse.  Some don't charge travel fees and some do.  With all the variables, how can the manufacturer list a price that applies to everybody?  The answer is they can't. 


I invite anyone to argue this statement.  People only hear or read what they want to.  If I put on my website that a hot tub starts at $10,000, consumers usually miss the "starts at" and assume the hot tub is $10,000.  They don't want to be told there are extras that they think should be standard and that the cost could be more.  It is always easier for me as a dealer to take away than to ask for more. 
I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.  It didn't work well because all my competition had negotiable prices. 
Most consumers understand that nothing sells for MSRP which means that MSRP is then irrelevant.  Every dealer has different overhead costs, different costs of doing business, which affect what they sell for.  Every business is in business to make money and if you think otherwise, you are mistaken.  I do like to think most are trying to make an honest profit and not screw the customer.

I don't think anyone is suggesting manufacturers publish an MSRP, or that dealers expose this to customers. I think its clear that MSRP is a joke, and each dealer can have a different cost structure. Nobody wants to run their local hot tub dealer out of business, and I'm fine with them even making (gasp!) a profit off of my business. I'm not arguing any of this. I don't think consumers in generally are disputing any of these facts.
It's also pretty well understood that you can't just drive a hot tub off the lot like you can a car. We get all of this. but none of these considerations require getting pricing to be as obscure as it is. I think you're making assumptions that simply because costs are variable, and there are optional accessories, you can't expose pricing.

[Michael Russell]

I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....

Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves...  Its that easy.

[castletonia]

I've tried pricing my products at the lowest possible price and with haggle room.

Have you tried publicizing your pricing?

No.  The policy of the manufacturer is I can only post MSRP.  If that is all you can see, you may choose to bypass my store thinking the price is too high, since all MSRP's are high.  In my store, all of my sale signs show the MSRP for the hot tub with the package and what my everyday, or regular price is.  During promotions, a "sidebar" piece is added indicating the sale price.  Everyone is welcome to negotiate to their hearts desire.  I have had people walk away because I would not meet their price demand, and that's fine. 

[castletonia]

I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....

Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves...  Its that easy.

That is the definition of shady, in my opinion.  I have had competitors not put prices on their spas and to me that is only done in an attempt to be dishonest.  There is a difference between making a business sustaining profit and screwing the customer.  Not showing prices is in my opinion meant to achieve the latter.

[Hottubguy]

I visited quite a few stores in my search. In the end I liked the stores that had pricing on the tubs when you walked through the door. They seemed more open and up front. I know that the price on the tub has decent margin and room for negotiating but it gives us both a starting point. Other stores I visited I usually played dumb to see what they come out with. This is when the greasy sales guys come out of there shell.. Mark up of $2-3k above what other stores selling the same tub have listed on them....

Sales is a greasy business. Hot tub sales is no different. The stores that want to be around for the long term and are not just out to make a quick buck with have honest and open pricing. Anything else and they will get a bad name for themselves...  Its that easy.

Your post sums up the problem I run into. I have tried putting my best prices out on tubs, customers always think that it can be negotiated lower. I have also made my prices higher expecting negotiating and some just see the price on the tub and walk. It’s definitely not easy either way. Customers in general want to think they “win”. Currently I have MSRP with my sales price next to it. For the most part my pricing is what it is and a lot of people get mad because my price isn’t negotiable but they think they got a great deal down the road because he magically took $3000 off his price. At the end of the day we are selling tubs at the same profit margin with a different approach

[Sam]

Exactly.  If you give an honest, up front, best price and the guy down the street says his is normally $13k but this weekend it's $6k, some people will go with that guy because it's "a better deal".  I've had this happen numerous times.  There is no dealer in the world that can regularly drop 50% from their price and stay in business.  Most dealers don't even have that much margin to begin with. People are often obsessed with getting the best deal and will believe the unscrupulous dealer who says this.  The honest dealer loses because he "wouldn't negotiate more than a few hundred dollars".  I prefer to be honest.

Another factor is that people don't know about hot tubs.  Everyone knows that a Toyota is reliable, but nobody knows anything about hot tub brands.  If you just give a number without having the opportunity to explain and justify the number, the customer will default to the best deal.  Like costco spas.  They are cheaper for a variety of reasons but they certainly are nowhere near the quality of a marquis, hot spring, bullfrog, etc..  But without the opportunity to explain this to the customer, the costco spa looks like a better deal.

Again, I think we could do a much better job as an industry but there are certain considerations that are lost when just getting pricing.  Combine this with the fact that there are a lot of shady dealers out there who are willing to lie through their teeth (see "chemical free spas"), I totally understand why customers get frustrated and upset. 

This is an interesting discussion and I'm glad we're having it.  I appreciate hearing the consumer perspective and by no means do I intend to sound combative.  Thank you for offering your experience and thoughts.

[kies1]

I found only one store that had prices posted. All others I went to did not even discuss pricing until they fit you into a tub that met our needs. Then bam the msrp was dropped like a bomb on you. Then all of a sudden the what I can do for you price came into play that dropped by 7 to 8 thousand dollars off msrp. I can hold that price if you leave a deposit. Are you kidding me, how is this not shady. In the end we went with the dealer that had the msrp listed and offered his best price which in my opinion is the way to go. As a consumer how do I know what msrp is if it is not listed. I found this part of they buying process very frustrating as a consumer. The hot tub is the only purchase I have ever made where pricing in most retail locations is not posted, this as a consumer makes no sense to me at all. Very frustrating walking into a store on a budget not knowing what prices are of hot tubs, just crazy if you ask me. Just my two cents

[Hottubguy]

I found only one store that had prices posted. All others I went to did not even discuss pricing until they fit you into a tub that met our needs. Then bam the msrp was dropped like a bomb on you. Then all of a sudden the what I can do for you price came into play that dropped by 7 to 8 thousand dollars off msrp. I can hold that price if you leave a deposit. Are you kidding me, how is this not shady. In the end we went with the dealer that had the msrp listed and offered his best price which in my opinion is the way to go. As a consumer how do I know what msrp is if it is not listed. I found this part of they buying process very frustrating as a consumer. The hot tub is the only purchase I have ever made where pricing in most retail locations is not posted, this as a consumer makes no sense to me at all. Very frustrating walking into a store on a budget not knowing what prices are of hot tubs, just crazy if you ask me. Just my two cents

Therein lies another frustrating thing for me. Some manufacturers list a MSRP that isn’t too much higher then what the tub should be sold for (Marquis for instance) while others will list some crazy MSRP prices (my area hydropool, Master and lazy boy). So say I offer $1000 off MSRP but down the road at the Master dealership they are giving $6000 off. A consumer is going to automatically assume they are getting a better deal with the Master. As a dealer it drives me as crazy as you guys the end consumers. One of the things I’ve noticed as a trend is manufacturers offering better price guidelines on there website. I know Hot Sorings, Caldera, Javuzzi and Sundance do this. Probably others as well but those are the ones I’ve noticed. I do appreciate the buyers perspective on this as well. Keep the comments flowing

[kies1]

I though the exact opposite. I took it as how can a manufacturer have a ridiculous msrp and then the dealer gives you 8000 grand off. I take that as is this truly the msrp or is it a made up price only to let the consumer think that they have just got the deal of the century. I think this is the absolute wrong way to do business. Let me know what a reasonable msrp is and then let me know what your best price is. Take it or leave it. Every dealer needs to turn a profit or they will not be there to support the customers who have purchased and been loyal to them. Example I can buy chemicals cheaper online but will continue to by from my dealer. It is called building a relationship because at some point down the road I will need them I am sure. This sales tactic was used in the used car industry for years and look at the reputation that industry got over the years. I think somethings has to change in he hot tub industry on how sales and pricing are done. As a consumer I am willing to pay a little more for what I think is a better product and better service and representation from the manufacturer on how they want to sell their product etc.

[swilly1000]

A lot of good comments here including from dealers.  And I trust that there a lot of good dealers out there, and on this forum.  I certainly have no problem with dealers making a good living and turning a profit. I will happily pay for good product and good service.

BUT............

If it wasn't for HTU I might still be looking around and wondering what is the best tub.  What struck me though even on Chris' site is that although there is lots of info about marketing spin vs good quality build, there still isn't a real lot about price.

The MSRP bit of this discussion is literally laughable.  I loved telling my friends about that little curve ball.  You sit down to talk price and the $18K tub comes down in price $5K in five minutes...but wait...here it comes...there is a $1K "factory incentive" right now and the price is now $12K!  Oh yeah? Is that how it's going to be? Are we really going to play this game? Why don't we just have a little respect for each other and NOT try that one on for size OK? Or we can keep playing and I will leave your store wondering where how many other aces are stashed up your sleeve.  I would be embarrassed to pitch that BS day in day out. How is a sales guy supposed to believe in the product when that game is being played?

The bottom line for me remains that there needs to be more disclosure. Nothing I have read from dealers has changed that. 

Silversun said it best: "I think the real reason why dealers don't show pricing is not because they can't, or that they would be chased out of business, but because it's in their best financial interest to be opaque. The dealer is at a significant advantage if they can select the price from which to start negotiations."

Until manufacturers and dealers get past this resistance to price disclosure, consumers will perceive them as (to borrow Michael Russell's word) greasy.