GFCI Tripping

[gmdodt]

Hey All -

I have a continual problem with my 2016 Caldera Vanto randomly tripping the GFCI breaker in the spa box.  The break trips randomly when not being used.  It never trips when manually being used.  It happens some time when its filtering, heating, or just sitting there in the night/day.  The serviceman came out the first time and saw the pump seal leaking so he replaced it, and it went about a month without tripping, but then it did.  Then 2 weeks later it tripped again, the two weeks later..again.  He came out today and checked out the breaker and was testing loads.  Turn the spa on and let it run for 40 mins and none of his electrical testing resulted in anything even close to being alarming.  I have also already replaced the breaker and the wiring from the breaker to the tub in hopes of fixing it.  This was the last warranty trip as it is now out of warranty.  The guy suggested waiting until something is more reproducible to call them back so they can try to trace it, but I hate having to check my hot tub everyday to make sure its on so that it doesn't freeze or the water quality doesn't get crappy.  Every aspect of the hot tub works perfectly..heater, lights, all pump speeds, everything.  Anyone have a suggestion?  I feel like the only thing to do is replace the breaker AGAIN, but he even said it was unlikely as it didn't get hot and this hot tub doesn't even pull anything close the the 50amps its rated for.

I've already spent countless hours doing research and just cannot find anything besides the typical person saying its the heater...which shows no signs of it being the case in this situation.

The tub is wired correctly, before someone throws out the whole fact that people mess up the wiring a lot.  It is wired directly in the spa box and is the only thing wired on the breaker inside the house.   It is also wired with heavy duty 6 gauge through PVC with all the joints glued together.  There is no water getting into the tubes, and the tub trips on perfectly dry days.  He had all the covers to the breaker and the tub off today when it was pouring rain when he was diagnosing and it wouldn't even trip, so im confident its not a water problem.  There has also never been any water seen in the breaker box or in the spa by the pumps/controls

He also said the temperatures all seemed reasonable..touched the pumps...tried to move things around to make sure nothing was loose, etc.

[Tman122]

Hey All -

I have a continual problem with my 2016 Caldera Vanto randomly tripping the GFCI breaker in the spa box.  The break trips randomly when not being used.  It never trips when manually being used.  It happens some time when its filtering, heating, or just sitting there in the night/day.  The serviceman came out the first time and saw the pump seal leaking so he replaced it, and it went about a month without tripping, but then it did.  Then 2 weeks later it tripped again, the two weeks later..again.  He came out today and checked out the breaker and was testing loads.  Turn the spa on and let it run for 40 mins and none of his electrical testing resulted in anything even close to being alarming.  I have also already replaced the breaker and the wiring from the breaker to the tub in hopes of fixing it.  This was the last warranty trip as it is now out of warranty.  The guy suggested waiting until something is more reproducible to call them back so they can try to trace it, but I hate having to check my hot tub everyday to make sure its on so that it doesn't freeze or the water quality doesn't get crappy.  Every aspect of the hot tub works perfectly..heater, lights, all pump speeds, everything.  Anyone have a suggestion?  I feel like the only thing to do is replace the breaker AGAIN, but he even said it was unlikely as it didn't get hot and this hot tub doesn't even pull anything close the the 50amps its rated for.

I've already spent countless hours doing research and just cannot find anything besides the typical person saying its the heater...which shows no signs of it being the case in this situation.

The tub is wired correctly, before someone throws out the whole fact that people mess up the wiring a lot.  It is wired directly in the spa box and is the only thing wired on the breaker inside the house.   It is also wired with heavy duty 6 gauge through PVC with all the joints glued together.  There is no water getting into the tubes, and the tub trips on perfectly dry days.  He had all the covers to the breaker and the tub off today when it was pouring rain when he was diagnosing and it wouldn't even trip, so im confident its not a water problem.  There has also never been any water seen in the breaker box or in the spa by the pumps/controls

He also said the temperatures all seemed reasonable..touched the pumps...tried to move things around to make sure nothing was loose, etc.

These are the toughest kind of problems for a tech. You can't replicate the problem but yet it keeps happening. There is a rhyme and reason to it you just haven't seen it yet.

Has it ever happened when you are using the tub? You didn't mention if you had a circulation pump besides the jet pump/s?

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Nuisance tripping is a pain in the arse.  Only real way to solve it is one start replacing parts, which is expensive.  Or start un-plugging things one at a time and let it run to see if it trips again.       Start with ozone if it has one, run for a week.  then pump 2 then pump one, or like mentioned does it have a circ pump.      Most times it's the ozone.   

[castletonia]

No circulation pump and ozone is optional.  I just went through something similar with a customer who has a 2017 Caldera Marino.  Random breaker trips, but never could replicate it.  Replaced the main control box and it has been problem free since.

Not saying that is your issue, but it solved my customers.

[gmdodt]

No ozone and no circ pump.  The tech just replaced one of the pumps so I'd like to think it certainly wouldn't be that one.  I figured I'd try to disconnect the heater first when it warms up a lil and there's no chance of freezing.  To do this, do I just pull the wires off the main board? I tried previously and they seemed on there pretty tight...

[gmdodt]

No circulation pump and ozone is optional.  I just went through something similar with a customer who has a 2017 Caldera Marino.  Random breaker trips, but never could replicate it.  Replaced the main control box and it has been problem free since.

Not saying that is your issue, but it solved my customers.

I really hope this isn't my issue.  Is there anyway to test the main board?  Also, what is the trouble shooting that led you to replacing it? Had you replaced any other parts before that?  If it keeps tripping after unplugging all of the components (both pumps and heater) would that mean its the board?

[gmdodt]

Hey All -

I have a continual problem with my 2016 Caldera Vanto randomly tripping the GFCI breaker in the spa box.  The break trips randomly when not being used.  It never trips when manually being used.  It happens some time when its filtering, heating, or just sitting there in the night/day.  The serviceman came out the first time and saw the pump seal leaking so he replaced it, and it went about a month without tripping, but then it did.  Then 2 weeks later it tripped again, the two weeks later..again.  He came out today and checked out the breaker and was testing loads.  Turn the spa on and let it run for 40 mins and none of his electrical testing resulted in anything even close to being alarming.  I have also already replaced the breaker and the wiring from the breaker to the tub in hopes of fixing it.  This was the last warranty trip as it is now out of warranty.  The guy suggested waiting until something is more reproducible to call them back so they can try to trace it, but I hate having to check my hot tub everyday to make sure its on so that it doesn't freeze or the water quality doesn't get crappy.  Every aspect of the hot tub works perfectly..heater, lights, all pump speeds, everything.  Anyone have a suggestion?  I feel like the only thing to do is replace the breaker AGAIN, but he even said it was unlikely as it didn't get hot and this hot tub doesn't even pull anything close the the 50amps its rated for.

I've already spent countless hours doing research and just cannot find anything besides the typical person saying its the heater...which shows no signs of it being the case in this situation.

The tub is wired correctly, before someone throws out the whole fact that people mess up the wiring a lot.  It is wired directly in the spa box and is the only thing wired on the breaker inside the house.   It is also wired with heavy duty 6 gauge through PVC with all the joints glued together.  There is no water getting into the tubes, and the tub trips on perfectly dry days.  He had all the covers to the breaker and the tub off today when it was pouring rain when he was diagnosing and it wouldn't even trip, so im confident its not a water problem.  There has also never been any water seen in the breaker box or in the spa by the pumps/controls

He also said the temperatures all seemed reasonable..touched the pumps...tried to move things around to make sure nothing was loose, etc.

These are the toughest kind of problems for a tech. You can't replicate the problem but yet it keeps happening. There is a rhyme and reason to it you just haven't seen it yet.

Has it ever happened when you are using the tub? You didn't mention if you had a circulation pump besides the jet pump/s?

To date, out of the probably 15 random trips, only one time did it happen when I pushed the JETS button.  The rest are when the tub is not in use.  When he came today he had his megger on and checked readings with all different types of button pushes on the spa (jets, heat up/down, lights, etc..).  I cant remember what pump it was trying to activate when it happened to me and one of them has been replaced since then for a leaking seal. 

[gmdodt]

Nuisance tripping is a pain in the arse.  Only real way to solve it is one start replacing parts, which is expensive.  Or start un-plugging things one at a time and let it run to see if it trips again.       Start with ozone if it has one, run for a week.  then pump 2 then pump one, or like mentioned does it have a circ pump.      Most times it's the ozone.

The only problem is it takes 2 weeks to a month to trip!!  I am going to start with this though.  On the caldera main board, do I just follow the wires for say Jet 1 to the main board and pull off the connecting at the main board? Same with the heater? or do I disconnect at the actual heater terminals..I assume everything is just plug'n'play style so they can be pulled off the main board easily..

[castletonia]

Honestly, I think it was dumb luck we discovered it.  After the last GFCI trip, we advised the customer to leave it and my tech came out with our electrician the same day.  When he reset the breaker, the dual speed pump was making an odd noise, similar to that if bearings were going out.  Initially, he assumed pump, so we replaced the pump.  Still had the same issue with a new pump.  Further investigation determined the board was sending power to both low and high speed of the pump at the same time.  We put the old pump back in, new spa pack, reflashed software and have been good since.

Had the pump not been making odd noises, then we may still be searching for answers.

[castletonia]

Nuisance tripping is a pain in the arse.  Only real way to solve it is one start replacing parts, which is expensive.  Or start un-plugging things one at a time and let it run to see if it trips again.       Start with ozone if it has one, run for a week.  then pump 2 then pump one, or like mentioned does it have a circ pump.      Most times it's the ozone.

The only problem is it takes 2 weeks to a month to trip!!  I am going to start with this though.  On the caldera main board, do I just follow the wires for say Jet 1 to the main board and pull off the connecting at the main board? Same with the heater? or do I disconnect at the actual heater terminals..I assume everything is just plug'n'play style so they can be pulled off the main board easily..

You really cannot disconnect the dual speed pump since that is the pump that feeds the heater. 

[gmdodt]

Nuisance tripping is a pain in the arse.  Only real way to solve it is one start replacing parts, which is expensive.  Or start un-plugging things one at a time and let it run to see if it trips again.       Start with ozone if it has one, run for a week.  then pump 2 then pump one, or like mentioned does it have a circ pump.      Most times it's the ozone.

The only problem is it takes 2 weeks to a month to trip!!  I am going to start with this though.  On the caldera main board, do I just follow the wires for say Jet 1 to the main board and pull off the connecting at the main board? Same with the heater? or do I disconnect at the actual heater terminals..I assume everything is just plug'n'play style so they can be pulled off the main board easily..

You really cannot disconnect the dual speed pump since that is the pump that feeds the heater.

Okay, so whats the play here?  Disconnect the heater first?  If that's not the issue, then what?  How do I trouble shoot that pump?  I presume its okay to unplug the other (single speed) pump since it doesn't feed the heater?  Also, I asked the tech again today and he said they were the same pumps...maybe I phrased my question poorly and he meant they are the same as the manufacturer since one was replaced, but I was seeking confirmation that one of the pumps is 2 speed while the other isn't.

[castletonia]

The pumps are different.  One is a 1-speed and the other a 2-speed.  I would start with disconnecting the 2-speed pump.  If you did have an ozone installed or stereo, disconnect those too.  I don’t think the heater is the issue.  If a heater is bad and trips the breaker, rarely will you be able to reset the breaker, it will continuously trip because the heater has a dead short.

[bud16415]

As has been mentioned intermittent problems are very tough to trouble shoot.

First it’s important to understand the difference between a GFCI and a Breaker. You said you changed the Breaker in the house that feeds the tub. Pretty sure that wasn’t required and as it didn’t solve the problem it wasn’t. The breaker is looking at load or current (Amps) and then protecting the wiring from melting down with high current in the case of a short. The GFCI doesn’t care about current it is looking for current going to ground by measuring the current going out the hot wire and the amount returning in the common / neutral wire. The same amount should be in both and if it is different by only a tiny amount it will cause a fault. The common place for that to happen is if the heater is weeping just a little providing a path to ground or the water. Without GFCI the current could flow and the problem would rapidly grow and melt things. With a GFCI you wont see anything heating up etc. as it will trip almost instantly at this very low current loss.

Some things I wish they had in these tub boxes. I wish they had an audible alarm and also a light that would flash. Both could be rigged up.

Something inside the tub or the wiring between the tub and the GFCI or the GFCI itself is causing the problem nothing up stream is the problem. It is doubtful something changed in the wiring as it sounds like it was done correctly.

Something in the tub would have to be seeing some change that once a month there was a tiny short circuit starting. Moisture could be a clue except you say it does it during a dry spell. If the heater was weeping I would think it wouldn’t stop for a month and it would be getting worse not intermittent.

If it was mine and I was at a loss I feel I would be testing the GFCI unit itself to see if the intermittent problem could be internal. Even replace it and see what happens.       

[gmdodt]

As has been mentioned intermittent problems are very tough to trouble shoot.

First it’s important to understand the difference between a GFCI and a Breaker. You said you changed the Breaker in the house that feeds the tub. Pretty sure that wasn’t required and as it didn’t solve the problem it wasn’t. The breaker is looking at load or current (Amps) and then protecting the wiring from melting down with high current in the case of a short. The GFCI doesn’t care about current it is looking for current going to ground by measuring the current going out the hot wire and the amount returning in the common / neutral wire. The same amount should be in both and if it is different by only a tiny amount it will cause a fault. The common place for that to happen is if the heater is weeping just a little providing a path to ground or the water. Without GFCI the current could flow and the problem would rapidly grow and melt things. With a GFCI you wont see anything heating up etc. as it will trip almost instantly at this very low current loss.

Some things I wish they had in these tub boxes. I wish they had an audible alarm and also a light that would flash. Both could be rigged up.

Something inside the tub or the wiring between the tub and the GFCI or the GFCI itself is causing the problem nothing up stream is the problem. It is doubtful something changed in the wiring as it sounds like it was done correctly.

Something in the tub would have to be seeing some change that once a month there was a tiny short circuit starting. Moisture could be a clue except you say it does it during a dry spell. If the heater was weeping I would think it wouldn’t stop for a month and it would be getting worse not intermittent.

If it was mine and I was at a loss I feel I would be testing the GFCI unit itself to see if the intermittent problem could be internal. Even replace it and see what happens.     

I apologize if what I said was misleading.  In the house panel, there is a regular 50 amp double pole breaker, which has never been replaced.  I put it in at the end of 2017 when I got the tub.  The house was prewired for a hot tub with #6 wire when we had it built, but we had never connected it to anything.  Outside in the spa box which I installed, there is a 50 amp double pole GFCI breaker.  That is the breaker I replaced to make sure it was not the problem.  The original breaker was brand new and was only in there for 2 months but decided to replace it with another exact same model that was brand new.  The spa box/panel is the Eaton 50amp spa box sold at Lowes. So it seems the breakers are not the issue since it has happened despite being replaced.  I had originally run #8 wire through the PVC, but also took that out and ran #6 just to be safer (I know its not necessary) and to eliminate any potential wiring issues along the strand...and that did not fix the issue.  I suppose I don't know for an ABSOLUTE fact that there is no water in the PVC but we glued everything together and did everything properly (my dad and I are very hand and knowledgeable about all things NOT hot tub :x).  So it seems like its not the wiring or breaker.

Which leads to the hot tub.  As I mentioned, there is no visible moisture under the tub on or near any of the components.  The one exception was there was a drop or two coming from the old pump which was replaced because of the bad seal.  The tub is only a 2016 model so I'd hope it was a part failing, but it seems like that's the only possible explanation.  The tub guy said these types of problems only get more prevalent as time goes on, but it doesn't seem to be the case thus far.  We got the tub in Nov 2017 and its been happening since then, often times taking around 2 weeks to trip.  It does seem to happen during the night time/early AM hours most of the time which leads me to believe its during a filter session or heating session, but it also does both of those things perfectly 99% of the time.

It's driving me nuts. I hate having to check my tub every morning and night to see if its on.  I am trying to think of how I can wire in an LED light or something so I don't have to go outback to manually check the tub but I haven't found any cost effective or easy methods to do that thus far.

At this point it seems like the only real options are 1) the pump that wasn't replaced 2) the board or 3) the heater (which is unlikely since it heats fine and maintains temp well).  Am I off here?  The tub has no additional accessories besides the LED lights.  No OZONE, circ pump, Bluetooth, stereo or anything.  Just the basic tub with LEDs (which work fine).

[bud16415]

All you would have to do is wire a test light in after the GFCI on one of the 120V legs with a small fuse of its own. If the light isn’t on the tub has no power. You could glance out the window and tell.