Bullfrog technology

[Quickbeam]

Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust.  It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat.  It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point.  Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it?  Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design. 

O.K., I can agree it's a more efficient design although I don't necessarily agree with your definition of what full power means. When someone says Bullfrog gets full power at all seats it's not true and it's misleading. I think people lose credibility when they say Bullfrog has full power at all seats, and I've seen that said a few times in this and other threads. And I'm saying this as someone who likes what Bullfrog is doing.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 I don't think I have heard any "Bullfrog dealers" here say there is full power at every seat.  And it's not something I mention  in my presentation.      I do however believe you get more/better flow to the jetpacks than any other spa because there are not nearly as many bends, twist and turns or manifolds in a Bullfrog spa as a conventional spa.

[Racenut]

I think this is where the "full power" thing comes from - http://www.bullfrogspas.com/more-power/

I think the full power thing is marketing and design vs physics.  Some think full power to each seat means full power of one pump to each seat.  OK, lets say they do that with tiny pumps to each seat.. that would then be full power to each seat? Would you be happy then that they claim full power to each seat? I don't think I would be.

Each jet pack has a GPM rating depending on what jets were used in it based on their design for whatever "optimum" is.  I think the full power statement comes from being able to deliver that flow.  Shutting down seats to deliver all the power of one pump to one seat, is then overdriving the seat, delivering more power than the original design called for.  This isn't going to hurt anything, and maybe someone actually wants that much water blasting them in the back.  And yes, I suppose any manufacturer could decide that full flow could be delivered to all seats because that's how they "designed and intended them to flow".  The fact is that when I sat in a Bullfrog with all the seats wide open, I was still dialing down some of the jet packs because they were more intense than I wanted.  Other tubs I have needed to use diverter to reduce flow to one area to give me more power.  Though I'm sure there are other tubs out there that can deliver good power to every seat at the same time too.

So yeah, it may be a lil marketing twist, but the jets are still real good with everything wide open, and if you rally want more, you can still make that happen.   If there was no way to adjust, then the detractors would have a valid point, you should have control over the flow.  Bullfrog just takes a different approach. But there isn't a company out there that doesn't use marketing to fluff things up.  If we all just took marketing at face value, we wouldn't even need showrooms or wet tests, just read the brochure and decide what you want.

[Tman122]

OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.

So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.

You need to think a little more logically.  Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust.  It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat.  It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point.  Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it?  Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design. 

Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information.  They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.

People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.

And Jim, what if you put a pump with better flow in an engineered plumbing system with manifolds diverted right, that has actually more pressure and a better feel than one with less plumbing and jet pacs?

Jeez guys, no one has said that it was crappy, or not different. I am simply saying it IS NOT better no matter what the BF salesman or relatively new owners hangin here say. You choose between 15 different feels with BF. If the top 5 manufacturers make 8-10 different models (with different feels) that gives you about 45 different feels. The odds are good that a few of those might be better a little, or lots better than anyone of the 15 different space pacs offer by BF. One of those 60 different feels should be right for almost everyone. Don't buy one because someone called it technology.

[Sam]

tech·nol·o·gy
tekˈnäləjē/Submit
noun
the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.
"advances in computer technology"
machinery and equipment developed from the application of scientific knowledge.
the branch of knowledge dealing with engineering or applied sciences.


Less plumbing, elbows, and manifolds reduces friction.  That is scientific knowledge and it was applied for practical purposes.  I'd say the word technology is apropos. 

You can do a simple experiment in your own yard.  Hook a 100' garden hose to your spigot.  Open it all of the way and make note of the pressure coming out the end.  Next hook up a 10' garden hose and compare the pressure.  *spoiler alert - The 10' garden hose will have significantly more pressure coming out than the longer hose.  This is a scientific fact. 

Feel the pressure coming out of a jetpak with a 2.5 hp motor with all of the jets turned on.  Now compare it to another brand of hot tub with the same motor and number of jets.  Guess which one will have more power?

Additionally, there are significantly less holes in the shell.  That means there are less potential for leaks and that the shell is stronger than it would be if there were holes for every jet.  I'm not saying leaking jets are a huge problem, but I've fixed quite a few in my day.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

You can do a simple experiment in your own yard.  Hook a 100' garden hose to your spigot.  Open it all of the way and make note of the pressure coming out the end.  Next hook up a 10' garden hose and compare the pressure.  *spoiler alert - The 10' garden hose will have significantly more pressure coming out than the longer hose.  This is a scientific fact. 

Ahhhh, no. The PRESSURE will be exactly the same (or so slightly different you wont be able to tell the difference). Now the flow...that will be quite different.

Now, considering you don't know the difference between pressure and flow ......

[Tman122]

Feel the pressure coming out of a jetpak with a 2.5 hp motor with all of the jets turned on.  Now compare it to another brand of hot tub with the same motor and number of jets.  Guess which one will have more power?

Additionally, there are significantly less holes in the shell.  That means there are less potential for leaks and that the shell is stronger than it would be if there were holes for every jet.  I'm not saying leaking jets are a huge problem, but I've fixed quite a few in my day.

You are correct, on both accounts. Assuming that both tubs have the same pump. What if one of the other manufacturers out there actually uses a better pump (more GPM/flow) with more comfortable jets and well engineered plumbing system that uses less power that is a better system. So BF uses a 2.5HP motor of pump brand A and the other guy uses a 3 HP motor on a higher GPM pump brand b and it feels better and/or is stronger than the BF. Show me the data that says BF has more GPM outflow at the jets than say a Marquis Ephoria. Your manifold is your jet pac. Don't forget to calculate the friction loss (as mentioned by me earlier) of the water bouncing around in the pac.

Lets not argue plumbing guys. There's literally tens of thousands or more different combinations of motors, pumps, electronic, jet, plumbing designs that may be better, or worse?? No dealer or owner can tell me it's better so.....

How about this, it's a better design for you. I can compromise. But like I said, I'll say it again. To keep the thread name solid. Technology?.....streeeetch. Full power at all pacs........streeeeetch

I left out the hose part knowing it was incorrect to not make you look bad, your welcome.

[Sam]

Semantics.  I think everyone knew what I meant.

[av8r]

OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.

So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.

You need to think a little more logically.  Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust.  It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat.  It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point.  Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it?  Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design. 

Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information.  They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.

People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.

If that's true, I can extrapolate that those people have never been on an internet forum before. 

[Tman122]

Semantics.  I think everyone knew what I meant.

I did Sam

[Tman122]

OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.

So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.

You need to think a little more logically.  Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust.  It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat.  It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point.  Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it?  Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design. 

Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information.  They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.

People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.

If that's true, I can extrapolate that those people have never been on an internet forum before. 

I'm only here to help. A little bit of confusion is better than gullibility.

[dporter22]

OK lets talk about credibility. "You get full power at all jet pacs" This is scientifically impossible, it's a sales pitch but a bunch of you have fallin for it, drank the koolaid. If you turn all the power to one jet pac it has the full power of the pump, or as much as the plumbing and friction will allow. The second you turn on another jet pac the first looses power and gives it to the second and so on. The BF I looked at didn't have a pump for each jet pac. That's the only way "full power at all jet pacs" is possible.

So those who say "full power at all jet pacs"= no credibility, just koolaid.

You need to think a little more logically.  Full power doesn't mean the full level of pressure/volume available at the pump exhaust.  It simply means that the system is designed to deliver the highest volume and pressure with as few obstacles to each seat.  It's a more efficient design, no one can argue that point.  Do BF sales people push the envelope with how they describe it?  Probably, but we seem to have a generally more discerning group here that can look beyond that and appreciate the differences in the BF design. 

Playing dumb doesn't help anyone, especially newer folks coming here to seek information.  They're looking for an honest discussion with as little noise to signal ration as possible.

People come here seeking unbiased information. Not skewed facts.

And Jim, what if you put a pump with better flow in an engineered plumbing system with manifolds diverted right, that has actually more pressure and a better feel than one with less plumbing and jet pacs?

Jeez guys, no one has said that it was crappy, or not different. I am simply saying it IS NOT better no matter what the BF salesman or relatively new owners hangin here say. You choose between 15 different feels with BF. If the top 5 manufacturers make 8-10 different models (with different feels) that gives you about 45 different feels. The odds are good that a few of those might be better a little, or lots better than anyone of the 15 different space pacs offer by BF. One of those 60 different feels should be right for almost everyone. Don't buy one because someone called it technology.

I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat.  To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be. 

And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power".  It's very simple and I don't understand what's so hard to grasp; each seat in a BF simultaneously has so much pressure/power/flow that most people prefer to turn their individual seat down a little.  This is what is called "full power at each seat" and most logical people would agree.  That's not to say that other brands don't have decent power, it's just that their designs require some seats to have much less power if another seat wants more.

I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.

[Tman122]

I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat.  To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be. 

And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power". 

I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.

OK folks, just so you know and in the spirit of the thread the above is completely not true and impossible.

This is better. With a BF spa you have to turn down the power if you decide to use just one jet pac because it hurts your skin.

[dporter22]

I didn't say BF was better, I said that all the seats in a BF can enjoy full power if they want without being forced to divert power away to another seat.  To me that was a significant and worthwhile advantage, to others it might not be. 

And I'm not sure why Tmann and others get so wrapped around the axle about the term "full power". 

I find it interesting that every time I try to explain this simple concept detractors start crying foul with irrelevant arguments about semantics, but none of them will ever refute the plain fact that BF does not force you to divert flow from one seat in order to get more flow at another with diverters.

OK folks, just so you know and in the spirit of the thread the above is completely not true and impossible.

This is better. With a BF spa you have to turn down the power if you decide to use just one jet pac because it hurts your skin.

Notice that Tmann still can't explain what's not true or why something he doesn't understand is impossible, and that he can't refute what I said about the difference in design between BF and other brands.  And once again he brings up irrelevancies like "using just one jet pack" which I clearly never mentioned.  I distinctly described having ALL the seats on at FULL POWER.

I even tried to make it easier to understand by explaining that by "full power" I mean that all seats simultaneously can have so much power that most people like to turn their individual seat down, and that other brands require you to divert power from one seat to get full power at another.  Please explain what is "completely not true and impossible" about that.  Am I and the thousands of other BF owners just imagining how our tubs are working?  Was I just dreaming when I tested the other brands and power was diverted away?

Why do people insist on calling me a liar when all I'm doing is relating my own experience with my own spa as compared to all the other spas I researched and tested?  Once again, every other spa I tested could not provide full power (or whatever you want to call so much power that it can be uncomfortable) at every seat simultaneously, while my BF does. 

I can't make it any simpler.

[Tman122]

Well OK lets break this down, but first. I didn't call anyone a liar. Maybe to much koolaid but not a liar. And I'm sorry you had bad wet testing experiences especially with all the new jet designs both waterway and aquaquip are designing and selling that the other guys use.

Now, you take one pump or even two pumps and you turn it/them on "full power" and divert, yes I said divert it to one jet pac, full power at the jet pac right? We can both agree yes here. Now open another jet pac's diverter, are you getting full power on both? If you say yes lay off the koolaid dude. It's about GPM (gallons per minute) that exit the jet. If a pump has a fixed outflow, which they do. Then the more holes you push the GPM to the less each hole gets. Pretty simple even for this dumb plumber.

This should clarify both your and MY understanding. And with 30 years of plumbing experience I'm not sure your qualified to question my understanding of fluid mechanics or any one of it's subsets to include hydrodynamics and fluid dynamics.

Listen dporter22, I know you are happy with your tub. This is not about that. It is about false claims by a manufacturer used to sell tubs and the truth from a 100% unbiased and reasonably knowledgeable source. I wish I knew as much about plumbing as cemgeek knows about chemicals. My problem is I forgot more about plumbing that most people know.

You can get full power at every jet pac. Not at the same time. You just have to "divert" it to the jet pac you choose. It's nothing more than a simple play on words. All manufacturers do it. Relax, I beat up every claim of superiority. Ask the Arctic guys.....LOL