SoCal Monkey wet tests: Epic, Maxxus, Cameo, Grandee/Envoy, J-385, J-575, J-470

[orlando1]

I think the sales guy is really trying to sell you the maxxus(sundance's most expensive tub). The cantabria is a great tub and a good tub to add to your wet test list. I would always be weary of someone having negative things to say about brand that's considered to be on of the top tier brands. The lounge in it and the cameo also are not the same. The back have totally different jets. Not only are they different, but the cameo lounge have a lot more of them. Those particular jets are also my favorite sundance jets.

The cameo lounge also have hip jets. The leg and foot jets in them are pretty much the same.The whirlpool jet placement in the maxxus is pretty much the same as the optima. I found that placement to be distracting. Also, the three in the footwell of the cameo are slightly larger and more powerful than the whirlpool jet up top on the optima, cameo and maxxus.

[SoCal Monkey]

It's proving difficult to find places to wet test every model I want to wet test, but I at least found a Cameo that's only an hour or so away. The store also has a Hot Spring Grandee filled, so while that wasn't really on my list yet, I'll try it since it's there. Looking over the Grandee specs again, they mention three "jetstream" jets "that’s two times as powerful as a standard hydromassage jet" - one in a lower back position, and two that look like they're for feet. I don't know how they compare to Marquis geyser jets or Sundance whirlpool jets, but I'll find out.  The rest of the layout looks okay, and I don't miss a lounge based on my experience so far, so maybe the Grandee will be a surprise contender. The Moto-massage looks neat in pictures, but so do lounges.

[orlando1]

The moto-massage is really nice. It's my favorite thing about the highlife line. I wet tested a couple of tubs from hotspring. The grandee wasn't one of them. The tub right under it is the envoy, and I did wet test that one. It has the same whirlpool jets as the grandee, but they don't compare to the geyser jets in the marquis. They aren't even as powerful as the ones in the cameo's footwell. For me, they were on par with the ones in the optima and maxxus which isn't a bad thing. You have some really great choices lined up. I'm sure you will be very happy with either one.

[SoCal Monkey]

Yesterday I was able to go for that wet test of a Sundance Cameo and Hot Springs Grandee (regular, not NXT). Of the four I've wet tested now (Epic, Maxxus, Cameo, Grandee), Cameo has moved to the top of the list. I would still like to wet test an Optima and Cantabria if I can find them, but I haven't found either of those filled, so the Cameo may end up winning by default.  On to the specifics:

Grandee

This was not the NXT model, but it's my understanding most if not all of the difference between Hot Springs "Highlife" and "Highlife NXT" are in exterior cosmetic touches, not the massage action, so as far as the wet part of the test, no difference to worry about.

I found the Grandee, and the Hot Springs line in general (at least the "Highlife" series) to have the most satisfying visual aethetics. I like the way they do lights better, including the ability to set different groups of light to different colors at the same time. I'm guessing it looks pretty neat at night, though I only saw it in bright store lighting. I like the water feature of three arcing spouts better than the flat cascade waterfall on other spas. The removable LCD control pad that you can just use wherever and let float in the water is really neat - I wish all spas had that. There was an empty Envoy NXT right next to it, and that look on the exterior does appeal to me.  If I could take all these features and put the on my top choice spa, I would, but they are the kinds of bells and whistles that complement more important needs, and my more important needs are all about the massage quality and variety.

As far it's hydrotherapy qualities, I wouldn't say that the Grandee was unsatisfactory, just that it didn't appeal to me personally as much as the Cameo. The unique jet that Hot Springs boast is the "Moto-Massage", that moves up and down your back. The Grandee had two of these, and though I read that they're at different heights to hit different parts (or suit different people), I can't say I noticed much difference between the two seats. It was a little different from any other seat in other spas, and I liked that novelty, but it didn't feel so amazing that I'd expect to keep returning to that feature once the novelty wore off. I could also see in person, better than in any pictures or video, how the parts moved back there. I have no real reason to expect they'd suffer from fast wear and tear, but the idea of a jet with moving parts in water makes me suspect they'd be more prone to problems or failure than stationary jets.  Beyond the moto-massage, the Grandee didn't have much to target feet or legs, and what it did have wasn't particularly strong. As I established early on, I'm looking for strong.  There was also a more conventional seat in one corner with lots of back jets - the kind of arrangement I often like - but I found the action to be sort of narrow and prickly compared to similar arrangements in other kinds of spas. 

[SoCal Monkey]

Cameo

There was much to like, but I'll start this time with the negatives:

* There's a single whirlpool jet under the cool-down seat. I wasn't sure if I never found the right combo of valve position, or that's just how it is, but its max power was much less than the whirlpool jets for the feet. Based on all the other jets and positions in the tub, though, I didn't feel likely to need this one jet much anyway, so it's a nitpick at most.

* The waterfall was inconsistent, sometimes not flowing the way it should even with that valve all the way open. That's a cosmetic problem, not massage, but nonetheless made me question the reliability of that feature.

* One of the small knobs (not either of the big diverters) was not seated properly, so I couldn't get it re-seated or really use it.  The sales rep said someone else would have to check or replace it (since she wasn't sure how to), so that gave me another reason to wonder if knobs and such might be prone to break or malfunction, and wonder how much effort and expense would be involved in fixing them.

* The control panel is primitive compared to the removable HotSpring wireless pads. It's enough to get the job done, but the display is completely unimpressive, not terribly easy to read (at least in full lighting), and there are no pump or other control buttons by other seats, so every adjustment (not counting diverter valves) requires coming over to lean over and use that control panel.

[SoCal Monkey]

Cameo wet test continued...

Now the good stuff:

* Those three foot jets (as vouched for by orlando1) were strong and satisfying. I had no way to measure, but subjectively speaking, I don't think they were quite as strong as the Marquis "geyser" jets, and definitely not as powerful as the rowing jets (or whatever they're called) in the old Maxxus that I referenced in the original post, but they were still plenty powerful and arranged in a way I could find multiple uses for them. Most obviously, they were great on feet, whether positioned in the seat directly opposite, or in opposite corners where I could still get feet in front of at least one of them.  I could sit to aim those jets at my lower back, but with all the other back massage options in the spa - both firm and gentle - I double I'd do that much.

* The surprise use I found for those foot jets was to stretch out and brace sideways in front of them, so with all three jets hitting, it was like a full-leg (and hip) massage on the side nearest the jets. For the other leg, I just flipped direction. I don't think it's an intended or designed use per se, but having discovered it, I can say there's no other spa I've been in that had anything quite like it. (Or if it did, I didn't discover it.)

* I expected to be disappointed by the lounge after my experience with the Maxxus lounge. Thus, I was pleasantly surprised. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a perfect fit, but the floating away effect was much less, and especially with jets on gentle, I could imagine spending time relaxing in the lounge instead of fighting it. I think it helped that the Cameo lounge does not have another corner seat beyond the feet, so there's less empty space to go floating away to. I'm not sure if I'm right, but the lounge seemed fitted to a slightly shorter human than in the Maxxus, which is good for a short human like me. Same for the wrist jets where present - they didn't seem a far reach like in the Maxxus.

* The cool-down seat sat higher in the water compared to most cool-down seats I've seen, which is actually lives up to the name of a seat you can cool down in, while keeping the legs in.

* The side seat opposite the cool down had some gentle back action. Nothing spectacular, but a nice mellow alternative to all that strong jet action when I need a break.

* The two corner seats offer variations on good back and neck massage, as well as calf jets. The jet strength in those seats ranges from strong enough to almost push you out if you aren't braced, to a back-ful of gentle massage.

* The step/seat right in front of the control panel doesn't have any jets on the seat, but it's the best place to sit for focused foot action with those three whirlpool jets that are on the opposite side.

* Another surprise feature that could make my final decision harder were the speakers. I'd basically decided a stereo upgrade was an easy way to save some money since most speakers I've seen would be drowned out by pumps and jets, but these speakers were placed adjacent to each pillow, so with music going, I could actually hear it pretty good when I relaxed into the lounge or either corner seat.  The sound quality was good (for a spa). I just don't know if it was $1500 good, or how speakers would hold up to so much weather and water. I don't want a bitchin' sound system that craps out in a couple years that would cost hundreds to fix or replace.  Does anyone know the endurance of these, or are they still too new to have a good idea?

The two models on my wet test wish list that I haven't been able to find are the Sundance Optima, and Caldera Cantabria. There was an empty Optima on the floor yesterday, so I could at least see that much. Comparing it to the Maxxus and Cameo, I'm sure I could be very happy in an Optima. The foot dome is like the one in the Maxxus, and would be a major advantage compared to something like the Grandee, *but* it's a downgrade compared to the 3 whirlpool jets of the Cameo. (Not a downgrade for everyone, but for my taste.)  The Cantabria is probably bigger (and more expensive) than I need, but it was one of the first high-end models to catch my eye when I started researching, so it's always been on my list. (That "Euphoria" jet intrigues me.)  I'm not ready to declare my search over, but the Cameo is in the lead.

[orlando1]

That's a great informative write up. It would be very helpful for people in search for similar high end tubs. Your experience mostly mirrors mine. The only difference was, I wet tested the envoy instead of the the grandee. For me, the first of the higher end tubs I wet tested was the envoy. Man talk about eye candy! Those hotspring highlife/nxt tubs are just visually stunning! I loved the removable touch controls. I also really liked the moto-massage. But all of the other seats were just "meh" to me and was disappointed in the rest of the jet options. The looks just didn't line up with the enjoyment.

My first wet test of sundance was the optima, and it was at that point all of the hotspring options I wet tested was pushed toward the bottom. It was my top choice until I wet tested the cameo. After not having a whole lot of success with loungers, I really didn't too much care for the cameo, but my wife was insistence about wet testing it because she really wanted a lounger. And boy am I glad I did. For me it came down to would I like the lounger more than the second best seat in the optima. Not only that, but the second corner seat combination of jets were different than any seat in the optima and it too was better than the second best seat in the optima. But what was really the deciding factor for me(all of the main seats in the optima and cameo were very enjoyable) was the whirlpool foot jets in the cameo and the foot dome in the optima.

One thing I would like to ask, did you figure out the air control for the smaller whirlpool jet in the cool down seat was actually on the opposite side of the tub and full power was to turn the second diverter valve all the was toward the second captain seat. For me, that jet isn't as strong as the foot jets, but still plenty powerful. On the lounger, I thinks it's the closet thing as a one size fits all lounger of all the ones I've encountered. I'm 6'1" and it's long enough that my feet wont reach the foot jets at the end unless I slump down. So I can easily see it being long enough for anyone up to 6'4" or even a little taller.

As for as the minor issues, it may be a case of the tub in the store being poked and prodded on, because I have no issues with the valves or diverters. Also my waterfall is working flawlessly and able to dial it in as much as I want with consistency. But I agree with your other minor quibbles. That control panel looks as if it should have been upgraded years ago. It looks primitive compared to other top brands.

[orlando1]

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[SoCal Monkey]

Not only that, but the second corner seat combination of jets were different than any seat in the optima and it too was better than the second best seat in the optima.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I couldn't wet test the Optima, but I could see that the differences were more than just where the lounge seat goes in the Cameo. Both corner seats int the Cameo were good enough that I figured even if the lounge didn't turn into my favorite, I'd still have two great seats plus those foot jets. I haven't given up on finding an Optima to wet test, but at this point, I'll be surprised if it would knock the Cameo off as reigning top choice.

One thing I would like to ask, did you figure out the air control for the smaller whirlpool jet in the cool down seat was actually on the opposite side of the tub and full power was to turn the second diverter valve all the was toward the second captain seat.

Sort of. With the saleswoman's help, I got that jet to come on with that diverter valve all the way as you describe, but either it was weaker than I expected, or it still wasn't on all the way somehow. I suspected the latter, but didn't find any way to increase that jet's output.

On the lounger, I thinks it's the closet thing as a one size fits all lounger of all the ones I've encountered. I'm 6'1"[...]

I'm not an expert, but most problems I've either heard of or experienced with loungers boil down to either body composition or height - sometimes both. I'm fairly lean, so I don't have the problem of floating too easily just based on my body composition. I'm short, though, so at 5'7", its obvious to me that the loungers I've tried skew taller. I'm guessing that's generally true, too, but can only speak for the ones I personally tested. Even the Cameo felt fitted to someone taller than me - like the low 6-foot range you're in - but unlike the others, it wasn't such a bad fit that I felt like I would float away or have to brace so much that I couldn't even enjoy it. In other words, I agree with you that it was the closest I've seen to a "one size fits all" lounger. It wasn't perfect for my size, but felt more accomodating even outside the "perfect" range.  I have no idea if that would hold true for the too-tall crowd.

It's reassuring to hear you haven't had problems with valves, diverters, and waterfall. I figure floor models take more of a beating.  The saleswoman said they have a sale on floor models coming up, but there was enough wear and tear on this one I think I'd pass on that option.

Regarding the control panel, I figure the "SunSmart Wi-fi" option might compensate a bit by allowing control from a smart-phone. It's not quite as snazzy as a dedicated floating remote like Hot Spring has, but it's not a bad feature. I still have no idea how much that option costs, though, so sticker shock might change my opinion on that.

Can I ask when and where you got your Cameo, orlando? I'm guessing from the name that you're in Florida, but you never know - maybe you're a big Orlando Bloom fan. 

One other update... I took to Caldera's FB page to see if they can help me track down a Cantabria within driving distance to wet test, since I had no luck on my own. No luck yet, but someone from Caldera did respond and say they'd contact local dealers and see what they could find out, so maybe that will lead somewhere. It's the only one left on my list that I think has a chance to bump the Cameo (even though I'll test an Optima if I can find one), but there's no way I'd choose it without a wet test, so my decision is feeling closer to made. 

[SoCal Monkey]

That's a great informative write up. It would be very helpful for people in search for similar high end tubs.

Thanks for that, by the way. Your feedback has been very helpful to me, too. When I started this thread, it was just with that question about the old Sundance jets, but the more general interest stuff is probably in the wet test reviews, plus your feedback, that came later.  I think when this has played out, I'll edit the more general interest parts out into a new thread with a more descriptive title to suit it. I could pull just from my parts, but if you're cool with it, I'll incorporate your feedback, too. Thanks to character count limits, it'll have to be posted as a series of posts.

I found an easier way. I was able to just modify the original post, including the title. Yay!

[JustAnotherNewbie]

Hi Socal Monkey, just saw your posts, I too was looking for a large tub with powerfull jets and hydro therapy, It's weird how simular our searches have been. The wife and I wet tested all the same tubs that is on your list  Did you try Hydrospa in Canoga Park?  They had a Cantabria tester there in July.
We also tried the Epic in Camarillo and we're even offered a great deal on a base model for $8,995 after talking to them at the home show at the fairgrounds  anyway the wife and I finally pulled the trigger and ordered an Artesian Isla Margarita Elite,  it's a big tub, 108 x 91, 67 jet, 4 pumps, lots of power, has direct flow control, lounger, captain seats, etc. I'm 5' 10" 190, the wife I s 5'4' 120, and we both had no problem in the lounger. You should at least give it a look. The dealer in Oxnard did not have the Margarita to test , but had an Antiqua Elite that we tested which is smaller but very much simular in set up  I priced the maxxus, Jacuzzi 495, and Grandee, the Margarita is thousands less. Good luck we can't wait til it gets here.

[lehacf]

If you are looking at Sundance are you planning to wet-test Jacuzzi as well?

[SoCal Monkey]

It's weird how simular our searches have been. The wife and I wet tested all the same tubs that is on your list  Did you try Hydrospa in Canoga Park?  They had a Cantabria tester there in July.

That was the first place I tested. I'd seen a Cantabria (filled) there a couple years earlier when I browsed but wasn't ready to buy, so I didn't wet test. When I called to see if they still had one when the new search began, they had just sold it, so I barely missed it. When I asked if they expected to get a new one for the floor, the first answer was yes, in about three weeks. When I checked 3-4 weeks later, the answer was no, and they weren't planning to anymore. That's where I tested the Maxxus, though, since that's what they had filled. (They had a couple others filled that I wasn't interested in, so I didn't wet test those.)

We also tried the Epic in Camarillo

Us, too. Sounds we almost could have bumped into each other with the timing of our searches, but we had to wait a couple extra days to go in because the one we tested was still pending arrival and set up in the showroom. We might have been the first testers.  Anyway, as described in an earlier post, I loved the geyser jets, but was not wowed by the rest. (This was the only test my wife joined me for. I've encouraged her to join for all, of course, but we both know it's more for me than her, so she's told me to find one I like.)

...finally pulled the trigger and ordered an Artesian Isla Margarita Elite...The dealer in Oxnard did not have the Margarita to test , but had an Antiqua Elite that we tested which is smaller but very much simular in set up

Those weren't on my radar, but now that you've put them there, I'll have a look online – maybe there will be another wet test added to my list. Curse you for adding more work if I don't get it, or many thanks if that ends up being the spa of my dreams. Sitting in spa after spa is just so taxing.

If you are looking at Sundance are you planning to wet-test Jacuzzi as well?

I had no plans to, but mainly because my list of prospects grew so fast early on that I just stopped looking for more to add. If I can find a convenient place locally to wet test, though, maybe I'll have a look. So, you can share some of those curses or thanks I just gave to JA-Newbie.

[amy2421]

I had no plans to, but mainly because my list of prospects grew so fast early on that I just stopped looking for more to add. If I can find a convenient place locally to wet test, though, maybe I'll have a look. So, you can share some of those curses or thanks I just gave to JA-Newbie.

If you decide to wet-test the Jacuzzi tubs, I'd suggest trying out the J-480 (lounger) and/or the J-470 (no lounger), based on the other hot tubs on your short list.

We did a similar search to you. We wet-tested the J-480 because there were no J-470's filled in our area. The lounger was the best I have found for not floating out of, but I'm only 5'1" and I still had to brace myself to stay in it, so we decided to go ahead with the J-470 instead.

It arrives tomorrow! We won't be filling it right away (sob...) because we still have a lot of work happening in our backyard, but hopefully by the weekend we'll be up and running.

Good luck with your search!

[lehacf]

How much did you pay for J-470?