More Wet Tests = More Questions... Ugh!

[jujubee]

To date wife and I have wet tested the following tubs...

Sundance Cameo (http://www.sundancespas.com/880series/cameo/)
Hot Springs Vanguard (http://www.hotspring.com/shop-hot-tub-models/highlife/6-person-hot-tubs-vanguard)
Caldera Makena (http://www.calderaspas.com/shop/paradise/makena)
Marquis 660 (http://www.marquisspas.com/hot_tub/models/660.asp)
Artesian South Seas 729 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/standard/729L.html)
Artesian South Seas 748 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/deluxe/748L.html)

We are going to test Master and La-Z-Boy Tomorrow...

I realize that many of these are good and a selection from any of them might make us happy.  Some questions I have now are...

1)  The shell:  The Artesian and Marquis and Master seem to have a much thicker shell.  The Artesian dealer told us this allows them to have a lifetime warranty on the shell.  It also allows them to use lighter foam and less of it.  Claim is this is better for servicing down the road.  The spas that use the 3lb structural foam do so because the shell is thinner and flexes (I tested this flex theory and it holds true).  Thinner shells do flex, but it is an issue?

2)  Pumps: The Artesian tub we wet tested had 1 pump.  Another had 2.  This dealer said he does not like circulation pumps, they are weak and more pumps means more to break down and replace down the road.  Are more pumps better (to an extent 2-3 plus a circulation pump)?

3)  Several dealers  have said that manufacturers make multiple lines (high, middle and low end) within a brand.  They also have said (not all of them) that all the tubs use the same shell, pumps and inner works.  The only differences are warranty and bells and whistles.  Is this true?  Is it worth getting a longer warranty (up to 5 years) if tubs are going to last 10-20 years anyway? 

4)  Filters:  The Hot Springs uses 5 filters and filters 100% of the water.  The Sundance has bypass filtering (the water from the jets goes through the bypass so the filter will not restrict the flow... more pressure.  Other tubs use 1 -2 filters.  What is the skinny on filters?  Does it all boil down to sufficient surface area on the filter?  How much is enough/too much?  What about these so called "micro" filters that claim to filter down to microns...?

5)  Ozone:  Dealers (non hot springs) tell me the hot springs ACE Cell needs replacing about every 2 years to the tune of $600-$800 and the Ozone bulb needs replacing every year to the tune of $100.  Is this accurate and does the UV bulb really do enough to notice? 

I have been accused of over researching things before I buy, but this is a large purchase and I don't want to  be disappointed.

Thank you to all of you for commenting on this and my previous threads.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

1. no. If it was, they wouldn't be the largest manufacturer and still doing it.

2. No. though it depends what you want. Do you want to be able to run ALL the jets at the same time (lots of people always using the spa at the same time)? Circ pumps generally run MUCH quieter...which may or may not be important to you.

3. True for some, not for all.

4. There are so many pros and cons to each, it would require days of typing to go over them all. But in the end, this should have NO impact of your decision. If any one REALLY was better than the rest, EVERYONE would be doing it (this goes for pretty much every aspect...if it really were so good, everyone would do it...the exception would be "new technology" that's still being developed).

5. Everyone bad mouths one top tier manufacturer? See my response for #4

Any time a dealer brings up another brand, you should let him know that you weren't considering that brand, but since he mentioned it, he much be scared and feel threatened by it..and now you're going to go check it out. If a dealer can't sell a spa solely on the merits of that spa, the competition may very well be a better choice.

[Tman122]

I'm going to have to defer until you narrow it down to 2-3

I can help better then, take your time, find some comfort in a brand and a dealer.

[Spatech_tuo]

1)  The shell:  The Artesian and Marquis and Master seem to have a much thicker shell.  The Artesian dealer told us this allows them to have a lifetime warranty on the shell.  It also allows them to use lighter foam and less of it.  Claim is this is better for servicing down the road.  The spas that use the 3lb structural foam do so because the shell is thinner and flexes (I tested this flex theory and it holds true).  Thinner shells do flex, but it is an issue?

I don't think any reputable brand has issues with their shells, certainly not the ones listed. Skip this altogether IMO.

2)  Pumps: The Artesian tub we wet tested had 1 pump.  Another had 2.  This dealer said he does not like circulation pumps, they are weak and more pumps means more to break down and replace down the road.  Are more pumps better (to an extent 2-3 plus a circulation pump)?

So what you're saying is a dealer that sells a spa that doesn't utilize a circ pump is telling you why you don't want one. Is that a surprise that he's not pro-circ? I could give you reasons why I'd prefer a spa with one and all you'd end up with is opposing positions.


3)  Several dealers  have said that manufacturers make multiple lines (high, middle and low end) within a brand.  They also have said (not all of them) that all the tubs use the same shell, pumps and inner works.  The only differences are warranty and bells and whistles.  Is this true?  Is it worth getting a longer warranty (up to 5 years) if tubs are going to last 10-20 years anyway? 

The jets themselves may be better on the higher end spas as well but there's some truth here in what you're saying. As far as longer warranties go, they are not free, its included in the price and its nice to have but only you can determine your level of desire for a longer warranty.

4)  Filters:  The Hot Springs uses 5 filters and filters 100% of the water.  The Sundance has bypass filtering (the water from the jets goes through the bypass so the filter will not restrict the flow... more pressure.  Other tubs use 1 -2 filters.  What is the skinny on filters?  Does it all boil down to sufficient surface area on the filter?  How much is enough/too much?  What about these so called "micro" filters that claim to filter down to microns...?

I'm not a fan of micro filters because of their short life cycle but otherwise this entire subject boils down to the fact that the opinions you get on this overall subject will mirror how that dealer's brand filters but in the end all good spa brands filter well.

5)  Ozone:  Dealers (non hot springs) tell me the hot springs ACE Cell needs replacing about every 2 years to the tune of $600-$800 and the Ozone bulb needs replacing every year to the tune of $100.  Is this accurate and does the UV bulb really do enough to notice? 

The feedback you get at the stores will obviously fall in line with what their product uses. Find the tub you want and assume you'll use a simple chlorine routine. When you decide what spa you want then you can consider if you want to pay extra for water chemistry aids but they aren't what should sell you on a certain spa. I will say my experience with UV bulbs was that owners would not even notice when the bulbs were out and that told me a lot but maybe some have merit but I'll take it if its there but I'm not adding it (and maybe not replacing the bulb once out, if I even notice).

I have been accused of over researching things before I buy, but this is a large purchase and I don't want to  be disappointed.

And we've seen others buy on impulse and then come here asking questions after the sale about what they bought so over researching isn't such a bad trait. I'd skip those last two brands (not a fan of Master at all) and go with your gut on the models you wet tested along with your comfort level with the dealers.

Thank you to all of you for commenting on this and my previous threads.

[jujubee]

I'm going to have to defer until you narrow it down to 2-3

I can help better then, take your time, find some comfort in a brand and a dealer.

Tman122, I can appreciate your position.  However, my questions will help me narrow it down.  I haven't found a tub that stood out over the rest.  I can honestly say that I would use any of them.  So the other issues will help me make a decision.

Thanks to all who have already commented. 

[Tman122]

To date wife and I have wet tested the following tubs...

Sundance Cameo (http://www.sundancespas.com/880series/cameo/)
Hot Springs Vanguard (http://www.hotspring.com/shop-hot-tub-models/highlife/6-person-hot-tubs-vanguard)
Caldera Makena (http://www.calderaspas.com/shop/paradise/makena)
Marquis 660 (http://www.marquisspas.com/hot_tub/models/660.asp)
Artesian South Seas 729 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/standard/729L.html)
Artesian South Seas 748 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/deluxe/748L.html)

We are going to test Master and La-Z-Boy Tomorrow...

I realize that many of these are good and a selection from any of them might make us happy.  Some questions I have now are...

1)  The shell:  The Artesian and Marquis and Master seem to have a much thicker shell.  The Artesian dealer told us this allows them to have a lifetime warranty on the shell.  It also allows them to use lighter foam and less of it.  Claim is this is better for servicing down the road.  The spas that use the 3lb structural foam do so because the shell is thinner and flexes (I tested this flex theory and it holds true).  Thinner shells do flex, but it is an issue?

All reputable brands will have a shell that will outlast the tub. This shouldn't be a factor in your decision as long as you stick with the brands above. And there are others. Not sure about South Seas they are not around here.

2)  Pumps: The Artesian tub we wet tested had 1 pump.  Another had 2.  This dealer said he does not like circulation pumps, they are weak and more pumps means more to break down and replace down the road.  Are more pumps better (to an extent 2-3 plus a circulation pump)?

You need the amount of pumps that make the tub feel good to you and your wife when you soak. No more, no less.

3)  Several dealers  have said that manufacturers make multiple lines (high, middle and low end) within a brand.  They also have said (not all of them) that all the tubs use the same shell, pumps and inner works.  The only differences are warranty and bells and whistles.  Is this true?  Is it worth getting a longer warranty (up to 5 years) if tubs are going to last 10-20 years anyway?

Yes several manufacturers make several lines. Each line is designed to meet a price point and as such cost less to manufacture. It could mean different pumps and controls but it definitely means less bells and whistles and less warranty.

4)  Filters:  The Hot Springs uses 5 filters and filters 100% of the water.  The Sundance has bypass filtering (the water from the jets goes through the bypass so the filter will not restrict the flow... more pressure.  Other tubs use 1 -2 filters.  What is the skinny on filters?  Does it all boil down to sufficient surface area on the filter?  How much is enough/too much?  What about these so called "micro" filters that claim to filter down to microns...?

Sufficient surface on the filter and the quantity of water that moves through the filter creates adequate filtering. They all do it. HS has a lot of filters and ALL the water that the circ pump and jet pumps move goes through a filter during use and non use. The other brands use a jet pump that moves water through a filter during non use at a much higher rate than the no bypass system on the HS. And some of the water bypasses the filter during use (high setting on the jet pump.) Either system works.

5)  Ozone:  Dealers (non hot springs) tell me the hot springs ACE Cell needs replacing about every 2 years to the tune of $600-$800 and the Ozone bulb needs replacing every year to the tune of $100.  Is this accurate and does the UV bulb really do enough to notice?

The Ace system is a saltwater chlorine generation system. Different than Ozone. Chlorine is a proven disinfectant for the nastys you introduce to the water. Ozone is nothing more than a supplement to a good sanitation system like chlorine. Either choice should not be the determining factor in your purchase.

I would skip Master and Lazyboy also. Neither has a good reputation.

[wmccall]

JuJu,

Take it from someone who has done the whole hot tub shopping thing twice, don't stress, enjoy it. You're in the driver's seat.  Now that doesn't mean its a total buyer's market and you can go in and make unreasonable demands (Not saying you have). 

As for any of the questions about ACE, OZONE, or filtration, they all relate to you sitting in several hundred gallons of water and you want it to be clean.  If you pick any of the brands you mentioned, there is someone here that owns that tub and has no problem keeping their water clean. Regardless of the equipment we all go through some process to ensure clean water and I know after 13 years of hot tub ownership, I consider it worthwhile.

Both of my hot tubs have had some form of UV Ozone.  My current tub is 2.5 year old Sundance with the "Clear-ray" UV system.  I've never replaced the bulb.  Maybe its still working? Most assume it is not.  I can't tell the difference.   It's still a great tub and we have no regrets.  My other choices were a Hot Springs Vanguard, and a Jacuzzi (I forget which model I wanted).   Looking back we made it an enjoyable process and we could have been happy with any of these tubs, but the one we bought fit us both best.     We are fortunate to have 2 reputable dealers with long term good reputations that represent enough brands to give us a good sampling.

[Quickbeam]

We are fortunate to have 2 reputable dealers with long term good reputations that represent enough brands to give us a good sampling.

Quoted above is the most important thing when looking for a tub. Go with a reputable brand from a dealer with a proven track record that you are comfortable with and feel you can trust. Once you've narrowed that down, wet test and get the tub you are most comfortable in.

It really is that simple. The rest will just get you bogged down.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

To date wife and I have wet tested the following tubs...

Sundance Cameo (http://www.sundancespas.com/880series/cameo/)
Hot Springs Vanguard (http://www.hotspring.com/shop-hot-tub-models/highlife/6-person-hot-tubs-vanguard)
Caldera Makena (http://www.calderaspas.com/shop/paradise/makena)
Marquis 660 (http://www.marquisspas.com/hot_tub/models/660.asp)
Artesian South Seas 729 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/standard/729L.html)
Artesian South Seas 748 (http://www.southseasspas.com/content/spas/deluxe/748L.html)

We are going to test Master and La-Z-Boy Tomorrow...

I realize that many of these are good and a selection from any of them might make us happy.  Some questions I have now are...

1)  The shell:  The Artesian and Marquis and Master seem to have a much thicker shell.  The Artesian dealer told us this allows them to have a lifetime warranty on the shell.  It also allows them to use lighter foam and less of it.  Claim is this is better for servicing down the road.  The spas that use the 3lb structural foam do so because the shell is thinner and flexes (I tested this flex theory and it holds true).  Thinner shells do flex, but it is an issue?

All reputable brands will have a shell that will outlast the tub. This shouldn't be a factor in your decision as long as you stick with the brands above. And there are others. Not sure about South Seas they are not around here.

2)  Pumps: The Artesian tub we wet tested had 1 pump.  Another had 2.  This dealer said he does not like circulation pumps, they are weak and more pumps means more to break down and replace down the road.  Are more pumps better (to an extent 2-3 plus a circulation pump)?

You need the amount of pumps that make the tub feel good to you and your wife when you soak. No more, no less.

3)  Several dealers  have said that manufacturers make multiple lines (high, middle and low end) within a brand.  They also have said (not all of them) that all the tubs use the same shell, pumps and inner works.  The only differences are warranty and bells and whistles.  Is this true?  Is it worth getting a longer warranty (up to 5 years) if tubs are going to last 10-20 years anyway?

Yes several manufacturers make several lines. Each line is designed to meet a price point and as such cost less to manufacture. It could mean different pumps and controls but it definitely means less bells and whistles and less warranty.

4)  Filters:  The Hot Springs uses 5 filters and filters 100% of the water.  The Sundance has bypass filtering (the water from the jets goes through the bypass so the filter will not restrict the flow... more pressure.  Other tubs use 1 -2 filters.  What is the skinny on filters?  Does it all boil down to sufficient surface area on the filter?  How much is enough/too much?  What about these so called "micro" filters that claim to filter down to microns...?

Sufficient surface on the filter and the quantity of water that moves through the filter creates adequate filtering. They all do it. HS has a lot of filters and ALL the water that the circ pump and jet pumps move goes through a filter during use and non use. The other brands use a jet pump that moves water through a filter during non use at a much higher rate than the no bypass system on the HS. And some of the water bypasses the filter during use (high setting on the jet pump.) Either system works.

5)  Ozone:  Dealers (non hot springs) tell me the hot springs ACE Cell needs replacing about every 2 years to the tune of $600-$800 and the Ozone bulb needs replacing every year to the tune of $100.  Is this accurate and does the UV bulb really do enough to notice?

The Ace system is a saltwater chlorine generation system. Different than Ozone. Chlorine is a proven disinfectant for the nastys you introduce to the water. Ozone is nothing more than a supplement to a good sanitation system like chlorine. Either choice should not be the determining factor in your purchase.

I would skip Master and Lazyboy also. Neither has a good reputation.

x2 to all of this...also agree I avoid lazyboy and especially Master like the plague, I'm working on a sale right now where the guy is working with Wells Fargo to get his $9,000 back from Master Spas because he purchased from one of there "traveling circus shows" and of course nothing that was promised was delivered so instead of taking delivery he is getting his money refunded and will be purchasing from me...I know that is grouping a lot of "potential" reputable Master dealers into a group, but as far as I'm concerned if the manufacturer allows it to CONTINUALLY happen (years upon years I have dealt with people attempting to get their money back from them) then there are all guilty as far as I'm concerned, at minimum they are DEFINITELY guilty of giving all of us good guys in the business as well as the industry as a whole a bad name and that is enough to pi$$ me off...just my .02 sorry for the rant

[jujubee]

Tman122 : I am interested in knowing why you would avoid Master Spas...

We wet tested the Master Spas 7.2 today and it seemed like a good tub.  Then we wet tested the Caldera Makena (wife already tested, but I needed to still) and I believe the search is over.  MY wife is able to enjoy the lounge seat in the Caldera.  Also seems to be more room in the foot well and every seat has the ability for her (5'5") to anchor herself by placing her feet on some surface easily. I enjoyed the spa as well. 

If anybody has an opinion on the Cladera Geneva vs. Makena please feel free to add it.  I wonder what really makes the Genevea a better tub.

The only issue now is price.  The Master Spas dealer gave us a great price on the 7.2 with Cover, lifter, stairs and upgraded surround.  $1.5k less than the Makena.  But... my wife had a better experience in the Makena and... Happy Wife = Happy Life..   

[Tman122]

Like Twincities above I am in an area where Master has a good following. They sell a lot of tubs and have some great dealers that make most of their customers happy. But the manufacturer and some dealers have some questionable tactics/ethics. And a larger percentage of folks have been disappointed. More than other manufactures like those you have listed and decided on. Caldera makes a solid tub.

I'm in no way saying that Master makes a lousy tub. They are built for the masses and sold that way. Fiberglass reinforced shells are less expensive to produce versus other methods. And they don't necessarily add any longevity. The more the dealer can get the better he feels with Master. But it should be about how you feel. There is more wiggle room in price on the Master because of their construction techniques. More middle of the road versus Caldera.

Agreed Happy partner=HappIER life. Lets not get carried away.

Get your water tested from the hose now and bring us the readings. Let it run for a while.

[jujubee]

Thanks TMan122.

I was just referencing a quote I once heard... LOL

I think we have decided to go with the Caldera.  Would like to wet test the Geneva if I can find one available for wet testing near me.  The Makena was nice though.

Thanks to all who have helped us along our journey.

[jujubee]

One more question...

We have decided on the Caldera Makena.  The local dealer will NOT budge on the price but will discount some of the extras.  So Tub, cover, stairs, cover lifter, chems and delivery = $9k + tax comes to about $9700

I called a dealer 100 miles away and he said if I pick the tub up (since delivery will be outrageous for that distance) he will let me have everything for $7800 (no tax since out of state).

Is it worth saving the nearly $2k?  Will/can the local dealer refuse to work on it or service it if it requires warranty work?

I don't want to not support the local guy but $2k is not chump change even if it will cost me $500 to get a trailer and go get it still saves me $1500.

[Hot Spring Ace]

One more question...

We have decided on the Caldera Makena.  The local dealer will NOT budge on the price but will discount some of the extras.  So Tub, cover, stairs, cover lifter, chems and delivery = $9k + tax comes to about $9700

I called a dealer 100 miles away and he said if I pick the tub up (since delivery will be outrageous for that distance) he will let me have everything for $7800 (no tax since out of state).

Is it worth saving the nearly $2k?  Will/can the local dealer refuse to work on it or service it if it requires warranty work?

I don't want to not support the local guy but $2k is not chump change even if it will cost me $500 to get a trailer and go get it still saves me $1500.

Are you saying the distant dealer told you that your local guy would service it?

The local dealer can turn you away for service and for good reason. Whoever sells it is responsible for servicing it. Ask that far away dealer how much he will charge you for servicing the tub after the sale because there will almost certainly be a trip charge for that distance (and he may not be out too quickly).

[Quickbeam]

One more question...

We have decided on the Caldera Makena.  The local dealer will NOT budge on the price but will discount some of the extras.  So Tub, cover, stairs, cover lifter, chems and delivery = $9k + tax comes to about $9700

I called a dealer 100 miles away and he said if I pick the tub up (since delivery will be outrageous for that distance) he will let me have everything for $7800 (no tax since out of state).

Is it worth saving the nearly $2k?  Will/can the local dealer refuse to work on it or service it if it requires warranty work?

I don't want to not support the local guy but $2k is not chump change even if it will cost me $500 to get a trailer and go get it still saves me $1500.

We bought our tub from a dealer who was 1 1/2 hours out of town. We liked both the dealer and the tub so that’s why we went this way. We made sure to get it written into the contract what trip charges would cost. I can’t remember exactly what we agreed to, but I know the first year was for free and after that there was a small travel charge. They also put in the agreement that whenever possible they would use a local service tech instead of sending their guy out, and in fact that’s what they’ve done a couple of times. Just some things for you to consider.