2014 Hot Springs Vanguard Advice

[Quickbeam]

Thanks Big Bird. Will look forward to your feedback. And for what it’s worth, I think you were wise to make sure you had a good dealer. I really do believe that’s a very important part of the decision making process in buying a spa.

[DaveMc]

Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."

1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."

1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
    The Vanguard heater IS titanium and has been for years now

2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
    pump size means absolutely nothing...jet to pump ratio, type(s) of jets ie what type of volume and how the spa itself is plumbed...in other words wet test, wet test, wet test

3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.

 Meh, I've been selling Hot Spring in Minnesota for years...we also use wireless appliance meters to monitor power, even during the coldest months in MN a Hot Spring doesn't exceed $30 per month (we pay between 7-10cents per kw/h here typically) under a $1 per day in an extremely cold environment is good enough for me

[Hot Spring Ace]

Hot Spring Ace-----"I almost responded to some of those items including the misinformation on the heater, the fact that the added insulation might make it close to equal to the Hot Spring, I think the pump HP is pretty much identical... but at that point I figured why bother. It was definitely good salesmanship by someone but Sundance is a good option as well and hopefully the spa will treat the new owner well for many years to come."

1. Can you clarify "misinformation" on the heater---it is my understanding that the Vanguard does NOT have a titanium heater option--it only comes with Stainless steel?
    The Vanguard heater IS titanium and has been for years now

2. You think that a 2.0 pump and a 2.5 pump are "pretty much the same?--Not that one has 25% more power?
    pump size means absolutely nothing...jet to pump ratio, type(s) of jets ie what type of volume and how the spa itself is plumbed...in other words wet test, wet test, wet test

3. "Eco Wrap" is not trying to catch up to HS it is passing it in economy.--just a thought
Of course you are the expert but it seems to me that a superior fact is not "a better salesman"---it is a better product--let's separate facts from opinions here--that is what the readers are looking for---not opinions---or spin.----just a thought.

 Meh, I've been selling Hot Spring in Minnesota for years...we also use wireless appliance meters to monitor power, even during the coldest months in MN a Hot Spring doesn't exceed $30 per month (we pay between 7-10cents per kw/h here typically) under a $1 per day in an extremely cold environment is good enough for me

I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.

[DaveMc]

I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost--  So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07

[DaveMc]

Hot Springs Ace
Thanks for your input--I would welcome a non partisan test of energy efficiency--it seems though that the average buyer is left with "company opinions" instead of a test comparison--say fill competing tubs with 104 Degree water and tell us which one cools faster---what is the cooling rate for each.  Don't you think this would tell the truth better than a description of product and method of install for each?

[Hot Spring Ace]

I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost--  So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07

Certainly go for the ECO wrap if it improves the Sundance spa's energy efficiency by 25%, heck even if its only 10% (depending on the up charge of course).

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

I'll take your word for #1---I did not substantiate--so according to you--Vanguard has a Titanium heater--fine
#2 Pump size in your mind means nothing---that is just in your mind--bigger is bigger---other factor of course influence th overall effect but pump size DOES mean something---
#3 What's good enough for you---does not set the criteria for a sound decision--your points in this answer are all irrelevant to the point--the point being that more efficient insulation is ---well --- more efficient and it ='s lower cost--  So if Eco Wrap cuts the bill 25%--then it cuts the bill--if your energy is cheap and you don't care--or it is good enough---good for you--but for an apples to apples comparison---"good enough" is not an answer
California btw pays about 0.31 per kw---not 0.07

sounds like you have the whole industry figured out...good luck on your purchase

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.

ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)

[Hot Spring Ace]

I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.

ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)

No one has independent information, we all know that. It would be great if that came out at some time.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

I'll add to #3 to give more specifics since that was asked for. Most spas that are foam filled use a 1/2 lb insulation and simply fill the cavity with it. Hot Spring uses a dense foam on the shell, on all sides and on the bottom and then fills the inner cavity with the lower density 1/2 lb foam. That layering is largely responsible for the increased energy efficiency and why a spa with just 1/2 lb foam will never insulate as well.

ALL the independent information I can find has always said polyurethane foam has an R-value of R-5 to R-6, per inch, regardless of density. You seem to be saying that a much higher density has a much higher R-value. Can you refer me to any independent information I might have missed? (My understanding has always been that the high density foam on the shell is to add to the structural support of the shell, and the bottom layer for durability under the spa [1/2 pound density wouldn't fair well during transportation].)

No one has independent information, we all know that. It would be great if that came out at some time.

 Maybe it will here   

   FWIW to any other interested learners here Sundance and Jacuzzi  both use a higher density foam sprayed on the shell, as well as the foam that is blown/sprayed in.   That being said it really has nothing to do with stabilizing the shell in those brands.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

EVERY resource I can find lists polyurethane foam with an R-value of R-5 to R-6. Almost NO WHERE does anyone really talk about relationship of foam density. There was, or still is one site (I can't find where it is), that's a consumer info site, written by the engineer of a spa manufacturer (the site is written anonymously and has no relationship with the manufacturer, where due to illness he's no longer with), that as I recall, pretty much said, emphatically, polyurethane foam had an R-value of R-6 to R-7, depending on density, HOWEVER, as the density increased to over "some" amount, the R value starts to decline. I would be willing to "bet the farm" that #30 polyurethane foam has FAR less insulation value that #1 polyurethane foam insulation. (remember, it's the pockets of air retained in the polyurethane foam that insulates, NOT the polyurethane foam itself).

So ok, I'll even take biased info. Point me anywhere that states the difference in R value depending on polyurethane foam's density.

[DaveMc]

OK--I have a suggestion--I will start a new thread---"User Energy efficiency Test"----and we will set the criteria for a test of loss of temperature over time---OK?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

This would be AWESOME! Who's going to buy two of the EXACT same spas, one being full foamed, and one being not, and put them in a climate and wind controlled room, to test? I'd be willing to contribute $50.

[DaveMc]

OK--we only need 399 more contributers---did you want a bank # to contribute to?