Leaky tub

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Plain old ordinary silicone seal (NOT silicone adhesive).

[DaveMc]

WE just did a start up on our Sundance Optima and I had a short talk with the Tub technician ----on leaks he implied that Sundance went to a positive fastener as well as glue at the point where the pvc tubing enters the tub---pvc to jet sconce if you will.  His opinion was that the chemicals react with the glue over time and the glue fails.
Clover brings up a good point too that thermal expansion and contraction has an effect immediately and over time.
I would conclude that either issue could cause failure (leaks) but both would raise that possibility.
Are there any test/studies of glue reacting to chemicals and thermal coefficients of expansion?

[clover]

In this case David, the pain of experience has confirmed in the late 90's, the EPA mandated changes to anything resulting in emissions into the upper atmosphere that would deplete the ozone layer.  This included glue whether it is for spas or Formica laminates.  In doing so, they caused the properties of glue to change, affecting the long term, time tested, applications in multiple industries.  It is commonly know in the industry, the glue is at fault.

As for your service tech's advice going to a positive fastener, all manufacturers now use a pressure fit to a ribbed fitting that is pressure clamped as well.  Some may add the complication of glue allowing the vinyl hose to slide onto the ribbed fitting easily during the manufacturing process.  This is of little consequence unless you have freeze damage requiring manifold replacement making it more difficult to make such a repair.

I would add, your tech's speculation about chemical seepage, which would be a water leak, is not the case.  There is no water, or chemicals for that matter, that should be leaking from the connections.  I believe his comment to be idle conversation of what he may think, which indicates he was not in the industry during the late 90's.  Just a guess.

[DaveMc]

Good points all!
on point 3 I think he was referring to the chemicals in the water having a long term affect on the glued fittings---

I would guess from your response that no mfg'r has come up with a glue that works 

[clovett]

Just letting the epoxy cure then its time to fill the tub and hope for the best! One other kind of leak I came across was around a jet housing. The silicone that was there had come loose and was leaking where the pipe meets the tub shell. I removed the jet wall fitting (the piece that threads into the jet housing) to get at the area. What type of sealant should I use there? The same silicone that was there before? Heres a photo.

If you go with silicone you may wish to buy some "spray" silicone and spray it first.  If you do that it gets in all cracks and crevices.  Let it sit for 24 hours then spray it again, another 24 hours and spray it a third time.  At this point while the 3rd spray is still wet fill it with 100% silicone.  This will be your best possible seal with silicone.  Spray silicone would be like "Flex Seal".  The additional filler silicone makes sure to give you a great bond.

[clover]

Good points all!
on point 3 I think he was referring to the chemicals in the water having a long term affect on the glued fittings---

I would guess from your response that no mfg'r has come up with a glue that works

David, your guess would be wrong.  Bad glue was never clearly identified by manufacturers as the origin of the problem at the time.  They kept their lips tight, as the industry dealers and service people had to deal with the developing problems 3 to 5 years later.  We would fix one leak on the right side, fill it with (cold) water and bingo, the next day our leak was on the left side, and so it went.  We knew something was wrong but didn't know if it was offshore pvc, etc.  Speculation abounded amongst the dealers.  While it was alleged that we were the only dealer experiencing such problems, the stories began to spread across the country leading to the scope of the problem. 

The glue used in the late 90's was a ticking time bomb that manifested the problem 3-5 years after the tub being manufactured.  That put discoveries in the early 2000's, many of them covered under the manufacturer's warranty.  Common sense dictates, the best solution to correct the problem was to eliminate the glue, and thus, vinyl hose, ribbed fittings, pressure clamps, and for some manufactures a dab of glue for insurance against leaking (paranoia) as well as facilitating easily slipping onto the fittings in the manufacturing process.  As you could imagine, this involved not only the spa manufacturer, but their suppliers as well, who had to remanufacture their jets and tub attachments to comply with the ribbed fittings.  This was not a small problem, nor was it a simple solution that included multiple businesses.

While spa manufacturers don't make their glue, obviously, the glue industry was hard at work seeking solutions to solve the root cause of such failures, and as a result, we all continue to use glue today.  However there is no reason for manufacturers to go back to the old methods, when the new methods were deemed to be potentially "bullet proof", an all of their attachments had been remanufactured.  With all of the manufactured products used in all of the different climates, you can imagine how the changing thermal conditions can exacerbate the problem causing good glue fittings to fail years later.

I hope this clarifies the issue that were at hand.  The Hot Tub Industry

The problem was much larger than just the spa industry, as it affected the counter top industry, cabinet makers, and any other industry using glue to bond materials together, many of which never experienced failures like the spa industry did.

Addressing the issues of chemicals causing some sort of deterioration, the chemicals are in the water, the fittings are not subject to leaking, so there is no way for the chemicals to come in contact with the glued fittings to cause any ill effect.

[DaveMc]

Let's see---glued fittings fail, glue was regulated and certain toxins were eliminated, the new formula glue still eventually leaks--and is said here not to be a good as previously, mfg'rs have resorted to "Positive" attachment's in lieu and in league with glue, leaks still occur----how is my "Guess  no mfg'r has come up with a glue that works"---wrong?  (I reserve the right to rethink this issue)
and
The chemicals are in the water---the water--laced with chemicals---is in the fittings---how can there not be an effect--for every cause there is an effect.?
I don't agree.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

The current glue is just fine, as good as the glue in the early 90's.

PVC glue works by literally melting/dissolving the PVC, causing to weld together (so to speak). In the late 90's the EPA mandated that VOC's be reduced. The first reformulated glues, for about the first year, are what caused all the failure. After that, the glue manufacturers finally got the formula right, and it's been just fine since.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Leaks happen from poor preparation.  Most spa's do not have major leak problem these days, cheap end more than the High end spas maybe have 1 or 2 out 50 might have a major break down, but again from poor preparation from the kid at the factory.  QC will only catch so many, but if it happens to one on the line that day, it will happen to ten.   Out of the 100 plus we sell a year, I get maybe 4 leakers a year from spa's older that 7 years. Usually a pump seal or a bad check valve from an ozonator.  A lot of times it's a bleeder valve/barbed fitting under stress on a wet end, just like yours.  Very rarely is it a glued fitting.  Jet wise it is usually a fitting not tightened down properly that has backed off on the jet back.  Waterfalls seem to fail because some fat chick planted her a-- on it and it broke. 

[clover]

Let's see---glued fittings fail, glue was regulated and certain toxins were eliminated, the new formula glue still eventually leaks--and is said here not to be a good as previously, mfg'rs have resorted to "Positive" attachment's in lieu and in league with glue, leaks still occur----how is my "Guess  no mfg'r has come up with a glue that works"---wrong?  (I reserve the right to rethink this issue)
and
The chemicals are in the water---the water--laced with chemicals---is in the fittings---how can there not be an effect--for every cause there is an effect.?
I don't agree.

DavidMc, until you live it, or learn it, you don't know it.  What you have repeated in your words, is not what I said in my words.  Your perception in how you view things is somewhat distorted and lacking insight. 

I am sorry you don't understand the history I thought would be informative.  But then, you perpetuate your lack of understanding.

Your guess is exactly that, a guess.  But, it is one that exposes the lack of knowledge, or understanding behind the facts that we have lived and learned from, leaving you to disagree with what we know.  This is your prerogative, so it becomes pointless for any of us to try to be helpful.

Best wishes in your hot tubing experience.  May your karma reflect your experience in life.

[Kev B]

[/quote]

If you go with silicone you may wish to buy some "spray" silicone and spray it first.  If you do that it gets in all cracks and crevices.  Let it sit for 24 hours then spray it again, another 24 hours and spray it a third time.  At this point while the 3rd spray is still wet fill it with 100% silicone.  This will be your best possible seal with silicone.  Spray silicone would be like "Flex Seal".  The additional filler silicone makes sure to give you a great bond.
[/quote]

 This is a joke right? I love running across people like you that give up and call me out....my labor rate goes way up!  Blind leading the blind in here. I was at the car wash the other day and laughed my *** off when I saw a guy who had his rims sprayed with flex seal watch it fall off.
 I was on a job not long ago where the guy used a full can of the magical spray silicone....you think cleaning old foam off the pipes is a pain,try that.

[DaveMc]

Clover
You seem to spend a lot of time getting upset--my Karma is in fine shape---when I was an active worker I managed 140 to 180 men and women --and we reached our goals---99% of the time.  You cannot do that without knowing how to listen, how to be critical and how to resolve issues.  On every project tho there was one person that gummed up the works and they either were motivated to see the light or were carnage.
When you say " the chemicals are in the water, the fittings are not subject to leaking, so there is no way for the chemicals to come in contact with the glued fittings "---that statement makes no sense!  Every thought in that sentence is contradictory---
------We are talking here about leaking fittings--and you say they are not subject to leaking--amazing
------The water is laced with chemicals and you say there is no way for that chemically laced water to come in contact with glued fittings!  Amazing
The quest here for most of us is knowledge in one form or another ---not one-upmanship.
For me on this subject the question is why do fittings leak, is it vibration, chemical interaction, faulty glue, ---there is a reason but that reason has not been defined yet.
One post said that the "glue"---melted the pvc and that the process was actually a melting and fusing of the pvc---a welding if you will---I am not so sure of that yet--I think some glues do that to some materials but not all---so that is worth looking in to --don'
t you think?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

The chemicals in the water aren't going to cause a properly glued PVC joint to fail.

[clover]

"Amazing", Yes, this really is.

But then, explain to me, presuming there are over 100 water tight glue joints in a hot tub that are not leaking, how many of the joints have chemicals compromising the glue in a water tight bond?  You are suggesting that all bonded connections are both exposed to, and compromised by chemicals in the water.

If a glued fitting IS leaking, then you have water with chemical content leaking.  Now you have chemical contact with the glue "after the fact", but not before this occurrence.  But, the chemicals in the water did not cause the leak to occur.  You may want to change your focus from glue, and focus on thermal conditions that occur as water temperatures vary from 54 degrees to 104 degrees, in conjunction with the exterior thermal conditions of the daily weather.

Logic applies.

[DaveMc]

You are entitled to your opinion--but the joints--and the glue are subject to water and everything that is in the water---go google leaky pipes --0co0pper galvanized etc---