Thermospas -vs- the Competition

[dazedandconfused]

I just saw the DVD for thermospas.  It was a great marketing tool!  The marketing folks at a spa manufacturer could sell ice to eskimos!  

Anyway, I have read all the negative critism on these and other forums about monthly running costs, purchase costs, service, etc.  

I think their insulation method is adequate for me environment but probably not the best for all you Northerners but ...

1) They say ants and critters eat and make nests in the full foam spas.  IS this true?  I can only imagine the critters that can live in an unfoamed spa like a thermospa.

2) They say leaks are a costly repair (searching and digging in the foam) in a fully foamed spa.  Arent leaks covered under warranty thru HS, SD, etc?  Also, outside of a warranty, is it really hard to find and fix leaks?  Is your spa's foam destroyed during the 'digging' process?

3) What are the benefits of a Thermospa over the competition?

4 and last) Can you even wet test a thermospa since they sell factory direct, ie, no show rooms?

Thanks

[Brewman]

There is no winner in the thermo pane vs fully foamed argument.  You are right to be concerned about Thermospa.  They seem very high priced, you have to put up with a high pressure sales pitch, and you cannot wet test, which is one really good reason to pass on that brand.  Be wary of any dealer who uses negative selling.  
Yes, foam often needs to be removed to repair leaks, but it is replaced.  And yes, leaks during the warranty period should be covered.  
I know that if I need my spa serviced, my dealer is only a few miles away.  Can Thermospa make this claim?

Brewman

[Spa_Tech]

1) They say ants and critters eat and make nests in the full foam spas.  IS this true?  I can only imagine the critters that can live in an unfoamed spa like a thermospa.

2) They say leaks are a costly repair (searching and digging in the foam) in a fully foamed spa.  Arent leaks covered under warranty thru HS, SD, etc?  Also, outside of a warranty, is it really hard to find and fix leaks?  Is your spa's foam destroyed during the 'digging' process?

3) What are the benefits of a Thermospa over the competition?

4 and last) Can you even wet test a thermospa since they sell factory direct, ie, no show rooms?

1) This is actually more true of thermo-pane spas- since there are larger cavities in them it makes a nice dry 'house' for rodents, snakes, and varieties of stinging insects. Ants will build their homes in either type of spa.

2) The most costly repair on any spa in my opinion, would be between a major shell repair or complete replacement of the electronics. A plumbing repair can be quite expensive, but if you have a technician that knows what theyre doing it wont be as expensive as some portray it... My most costly full foam plumbing repair to date was to the tune of $485.00 including parts and labor. (Replacing a control box on many new spas starts at about $600.00 for example.) Leaks are typically covered by warranties for most major companies- if the foam is removed by a service tech, is replaced with handi-foam or other two part expanding insulation.

3) Let me think about that...No showroom, no local service representative, spas that are higher priced than similar product... Nope cant think of any benefits. Sorry.

4) No showroom = no wet test-- that is unless you can convince them to deliver a spa for you to try out over a weekend.

[Spatech_tuo]

If you're the type that likes overpaying and getting a product that is notorious for not being backed by the manufacturer then I'd say Thermospas is the one for you.

Why would anyone consider them? If you like full foam go with Hot Spring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Caldera, Marquis and Beachcomber or if you're a thermospane person look into Catalina, Coleman, Master, LA Spas, etc.

[Rboehme]

Has anyone seen the Thermospas Infomercial?

[dpgtech]

I agree with spa tech t.u.o.  Go with a reputable brand with a local dealer, showroom, etc.  All of the ones he listed would suffice.  in my humble opinion most of the reputable spas are effiecient, don't get to hung up on thermo vs. full foam. there are many other features to look at and compare.  

Ants and Critters have an easier time getting into and nesting in thermopane spas.  Leaks are certainly easier to find and repair in a thermo spa vs. a full foam.  depending on how long it takes for the customer to notice or report the leak the full foam spas soak up water like crazy and waterlog the foam.  Having a good service tech can make a big difference in terms of time spent finding and fixing leak.

[doodoo]

Saw lot's of ads during the golf tournament on the golf cahnnel two weekeneds ago. Thought to myself - if I did'nt know any better that would seem very appealing. But I do know different and would never buy or recommend that product. If ya wanna know why, see my previous post on the Thermospa sales experience.

[beachman]

I went threw alot of forms trying to find out what kind of hottub was a good quality one, and to my surprise there was alot of negitive feedback about the thermospas, and customers said to stay away from them...

[jeff_redden]

Wow!  Was browsing this site out of curiosity but am now forced to actually enter a reply to this thread.  Obviosuly this site is designed to help Watkins sales, but outright lying deserves a response.
  First, Mr. DooDoo...Thermospas does not sell tubs in your location, Ontario Canada so I'm surious how you went through such a dreadful experience.  Since you have so many posts on here I'm guessing you are not in fact a consumer, but actually a dealer so I guess that answers the question.
  In regards to Dazedandconfused's questions, here are some answers:
    Bugs and mice may enter any tub from any manufacturer.  The difference between a full-foam design and a thermopane design is that you can easily get rid of the bugs/mice in a thermopane design.  In a full-foam tub the only way you could be confident that all of the bugs/mice are gone is to remove all of the foam.  For instance if a colony of ants moved in, you could set traps inside a thermopane design and actually check inside everyday to see if they were still there.  In a full-foam design, if you ripped out half the foam they might still be in the other half...so it all has to come out.
  Leaks in a full foam design can be quite difficult to locate.  The down time involved is obviously a hastle but what's really scary is how many dealers replace the foam they've removed.  What the average customer forgets about is the amount of weight a hot-tub shell has to support.  At 8 pounds per gallon a 300 gallon spa has 2400 pounds of water in it.  Sadly many manufacturers...and every full-foam manufacuter I've ever seen....rely on the foam to create a pedestal under the shell to support all of the weight.  So...the foam is not only being used as insulation it is also being used as structural foam.  And when the dealer comes out and takes spray-cans from Home Depot to replace the removed foam...or what is more common just stuffs fiberglass batted insulation inside...the structural support is obviously compromised.  So...when the tub starts to develop cracks in the shell it's no mystery what happened.
  Benefits of a Thermospa?  Local support that will always be there.  To debunk the greatest myth that dealers on the web try to spread, with Thermospas you have a support base that will never change.  Ask the dealers you've spoken to what would happen if they went bankrupt?  Or ask them what happens if they decide to switch brands (a very common occurence in this industry so that dealers don't have to perform service).  The next benefit would be quality design and engineering.  A Thermospa shell has more fiberglass backing than any other tub you'll ever look at...so foam support isn't needed.  Since cabinets/plumbing/equipment all pretty much weigh the same a great way to qucikly know how thick a shell is is too look at the dry-weight of a spa.  Dry-weight of a 4 person Thermospa...950 pounds or more.  Compare that to other manufacturers.  The engineering and design has recently won two impressive awards: The Inspire Award from the National Spa And Pool Institute for innovation and leadership within the industry, and the only spa company ever to receive a  Commendation from the Arthrits Foundation (a non-profit group) see their .org website for info.  So, if quality engineering/construction, effective therapy and reliable customer support are important to you, those are the benefits.
  And finally the question of wet-testing.  No, you cannot wet-test a Thermospa.  But how can you be 100% positive that any tub you wet-test at a dealer will be identical in performance to the tub you actually receive?  If you were a dealer wouldn't you go out of your way to make sure the tubs in your showroom performed as impressively as possible even though it may not be a reflection of what the customer will actually receive?  Also, with Thermospa we are talking about a different level of spa...just as I don't need to test-drive a Ferrari to know it will be impressive, there's no need to wet-test a Thermospa to know it will be perfection.
 So..sorry about the rant, but dealers take too many liberties with what they write on these websites and I had to reply.  It's funny how DooDoo slams his fictitious Thermospa rep for selling against other companies like that's distateful while as he's typing his description that's exactly what he's doing!

[Spatech_tuo]

That last post is so far from reality I won't even waste the time critiquing it.

[Mendocino101]

Jeff you wrote.....

"And finally the question of wet-testing.  No, you cannot wet-test a Thermospa.  But how can you be 100% positive that any tub you wet-test at a dealer will be identical in performance to the tub you actually receive?  If you were a dealer wouldn't you go out of your way to make sure the tubs in your showroom performed as impressively as possible even though it may not be a reflection of what the customer will actually receive?  Also, with Thermospa we are talking about a different level of spa...just as I don't need to test-drive a Ferrari to know it will be impressive, there's no need to wet-test a Thermospa to know it will be perfection."


You know that old song "things that make you hummmm"...perhaps that might be the least credible and one of the silliest things I have read on a web site...dealers basically doctoring their tubs to wet test better...a bold accusation to make and something I have never even heard the faintest of whispers about before...

[jeff_redden]

  Ok Mendocino...dealers never, ever, ever misrepresent their product or lie...yeah, right.
 Not all of them do of course, but I think the wet-test can be manipulated in so many ways that it usually is worthless.  For instance...the sales-rep discretely adjusting diverter valves to increase pressure where his customers are sitting, but not telling them that he's decreasing pressure in other areas.  Or...the air intakes for bubbling systems/water jets pulling in the warm air in the show room is obviously not quite the same as how the tub will perform when it's installed outside on a snowy night around freezing.
 But, yes there are dealers out there who trick out their demo tubs and if you think that doesn't ever happen I'm sure the used car salesmen love it when they see you on the lot.

[Gerrym]

I reckon the number one motto when buying a spa is "if you can't wet test it, then steer clear, it is not worth the risk".
I do not understand why people but a spa without wet testing. Do you buy a bed or sofa without testing them for comfort?

[ZNICK]

As far as the full foam vs. pane insulation, both have their pros and cons.  You should look at a lot more than just that when choosing a tub.

Full foam can become a nightmare to fix, and any dealer that tells you their tubs never leak is a liar.  Thermo tubs are easier to fix, and although many companies have converted to this style recently, have their drawbacks as well.

Both types insulate well if it's from a good company that does it "right", no matter which route they take.

I live in Chicago and the non-foam tubs insulate here just fine... as do full foam tubs.

As far as Thermospas, they have local servicemen in every area they sell in, so when a competitor says "what about service?, Who's gonna fix it?",  the answer is the Thermospas employee that lives across town.  A lot of competitors use that as a way to "overcome an objection" when a customer mentions Thermospas...  but there ARE local servicemen.

Spa dealers also scream "you can't wet test you can't wet test" when you mention Thermospas... they're trained to say that.  Sure, it's totally true, and it's a great thing to be able to wet test, but I've sold HUNDREDS of tubs to people who have never wet tested, and they all love their tubs.  

There's a lot of people who go to a dealer and have the option to wet test, and refuse it anyway. They don't want to hop into a tub that 50 others have already been in that morning, or they are too "shy" to do it!  

Brewman says: "Be wary of any dealer who uses negative selling."  There's a LOT of that going on against Thermospas, not only in dealer showrooms, but on THIS page.  It's sad some dealers have to cut down the competition to sell a tub, instead of pump the benefits of their own products.

For some reason, Spatech t.u.o. roams the industry message boards with a vengeance posting all types of negative things about Thermospas.  I wish you would educate yourself a bit about them, because you post hearsay and your statements are so far from what a Thermospas is all about.  You really need to learn more about the company and the Thermospas  tubs...  PLEASE!

I don't mean to sound rude, apologies in advance, but it's obvious you truly have no clue about how the tubs are made and the dedication to quality that goes into them.  

Someone mentioned Thermospas "high pressure salesman"... trust me, a LOT of spa salesman are high pressure (not the good ones though), and they sure don't all work for Thermospas.  You'll find them in dealerships across the country, selling all types of spas... and pools... and cars... and etc etc.  Unfortunately, the small minority hurt the majority of us.

Thermospas are higher priced than some tubs, and lower priced than others.  In any case it's a high quality product with some of the longest warranties in the industry.

(continued on next post)

[ZNICK]

(told ya so!)

Thermospas was just given an award from the National Spa and Pool Institute that states they did more to "move the industry forward" than any other spa manufacturer. This award was voted on by industry insiders, the officers of OTHER spa manufaturing companies.

Here's a quote from the NSPI site:

Established by NSPI’s Hot Tub Council in 2003, The INSPIRE Award stands for and promotes the “Industry Nomination for Spa Promotion and Innovation, Recognizing Excellence”. The INSPIRE Award recognizes a company’s total contributions to the industry.

PURPOSE: To recognize a company whose efforts have demonstrated an overall commitment to the hot water industry, embodying an overall spirit of pride, dedication and service.

First recipient: ThermoSpas (2003).

Here's the Link, check it out:

http://www.nspi.org/industry_awards/the_inspire_award/

Thermospas is also the ONLY spa company ANYWHERE with the "Ease of Use" commendation from the National Arthritis Foundation.   NO other tub has this... and it's because of the work Tspas did modifying the spas for severely arthritic folks to use. It made them easier to get in and out of, to change the filters, to use the controls, etc etc.

Thermospas was rated by Consumer Digest as a "Best Buy", (the highest quality rating) and in the "premium" category for quality, alongside Dimension One and Master Spas. (April 2003) It ranked Hot Springs and Artesian as "midrange", along with Marquis, and ranked Sundance and others as "economy".  For the record, I think Hot Springs and Sundance should been ranked higher.

Who do you want to believe?  A Thermospas competitor on a internet forum, or the Arthritis Foundation, National Spa and Pool Institute, and Consumer Digest?

I'm not trying to say that Thermospas is the only good tub out there, nor am I saying it's the "best tub made". (although you never know!   )  What I AM saying, is that it can compete with any other tub on the market in quality and value, and has thousands of happy customers to prove it.  $57 million in sales last year is a testament to its reputation.

Thermospas uses titanium heaters, non-pvc patented jet fittings, has an optional chemical delivery system so you don't have to add the chemicals, has a shell close to an inch thick, weighs hundreds of pounds more than other manufacturers tubs of the same size, offers a cover (standard on most models) that holds over 500 lbs., reversable/removable cabinet panels, Aquaflo pumps with Viton seals, your choice of seat depths, offers tubs with up to 160 jets with 6 pumps, offers bars/cabinets with Corian tops and sharper image refrigerators, a plasma screen tv, JBL stereo/CD, etc etc.... it's all TOP quality from top to bottom... and made right here in the USA!

Did I mention that not ONE shell produced since October of 2002 has delaminated (bubbles/blistering) or been reported with any cosmetic defects?      Yes... 100% perfection!

Thermospas may have the best warranty in the industry... most companies warranty their pumps/blowers/heaters for 3-5 years.  With Thermospas it's a 10 year warranty.  Shell structure is covered for 20 years, and they offer a generous trade-in policy!

Anyway, look at every tub in your area, then let the Thermospas guy come out, and make up your mind for yourself.  He'll measure your gates and fences, check your deck/patio for structural integrity, make sure you have enough "juice" electrically to power up your tub, and let you know exactly what you have to do to get ready for your tub to be delivered.  He'll spend hours answering the questions the dealer in your area might not have had the time to answer for you... except for Chas   , who will "make" the time for you if he doesn't have it .... then make your decision.

If nothing else, you'll have a great education on spas, and get some good ideas for your particular application.  

Z

P.S. Now, I'm going to bed... I've been reading these and other boards for almost 5 hours, and my wife thinks I'm out of my mind!